Demon Princes

[admin]

Post your advice for playing this kingdom in this thread.

Thank you for contributing to the collective wisdom on how to best play this kingdom in Alamaze!

[Maximus Dominus]

Three very powerful characters, the three Demon Prince characters, and I really don't know how to use them to achieve the most out of them.

So, what I'm thinking is, use Order #351 - Demonic Gate to portal them into population centers, and then what? Do I send all three to the same population center?

And then what, if I do go that route? Have one to stir unrest (Order #315), one to rebel population center Order #320), and the other one to usurp the population center Order #330)?

Or would I be better of off having one of the Demon Princes to do the Demonic Enamor (Order #283), instead of stir unrest (Order #315)? Which is better to do? Stir unrest, or enamor the region that the pop center is in? Which helps the rebel population center and usurp population center orders to succeed the most?

[Jon Deaux]

Three very powerful characters, the three Demon Prince characters, and I really don't know how to use them to achieve the most out of them.

So, what I'm thinking is, use Order #351 - Demonic Gate to portal them into population centers, and then what? Do I send all three to the same population center?

And then what, if I do go that route? Have one to stir unrest (Order #315), one to rebel population center Order #320), and the other one to usurp the population center Order #330)?

Or would I be better of off having one of the Demon Princes to do the Demonic Enamor (Order #283), instead of stir unrest (Order #315)? Which is better to do? Stir unrest, or enamor the region that the pop center is in? Which helps the rebel population center and usurp population center orders to succeed the most?

In my opinion, the real power of the Princes is their unlimited range, and immunity to sleep.  And now with their immortality, they have free reign.  They also cost 1/3 the amount to move as a normal Prince.  Gate used to be undetected about 50% of the time, now its 100%.  My strategy would be to use your King and Wizards to maintain good regional reaction while jumping around with the princes to capture PCs.

My opinion again is the demonic denigration and demonic enamor is very situational, and not usually the best use of an order.

Whether or not you can take a PC with a political depends on your influence, type of PC, regional reaction, and emissary rank.  A Prince whose king has 12 influence in a friendly region can usually take a neutral city, so two could take a controlled city (baring other influences, such as fortification, natural defense like the ruthless trait, and maintain status quo.) 

One other cool thing to remember, if the rules are the same since the last time I read them, the Princes never act at less than halfway between suspicious and tolerant regional reaction... which means you can probably go into a hostile region and take controlled villages and maybe even towns without enamoring.  Working together, the princes could possibly take hostile cities.  If you get your ESO, you can have a 4th Prince, definitely worth going for.

The best strategy, in my opinion, however, is one that employs dynamic tactics using multiple assets in harmony.  Sending three princes into your neighbors region by themselves is just dicking around, which could be fun, but not particularly effective.

[Pine Needle]

One the one hand, immortal porting demons x 4 seems unbeatable. On the other, later in the game, politics is not that important with bigger pcs. On the third hand, maybe I'm wrong. Seems like a perfect test case for Jon Dough.

P.S. Above average wizards plus decent recruiting and undead... profit?

[Maximus Dominus]

The best strategy, in my opinion, however, is one that employs dynamic tactics using multiple assets in harmony.

I don't know what, exactly, you mean by that, but your choice of phraseology, I like.

Currently, I am playing the Demon Princes kingdom in game 5703. It is currently the most fun that I have had in Alamaze, and that includes being in two games as the Underworld (two very different experiences with them), a game as the Dwarves, and game as the Warlock.

Sending three princes into your neighbors region by themselves is just dicking around, which could be fun, but not particularly effective.

Well, having done just exactly that two turns ago, and having wrested control of a Minor City from the Giants, I can speak from very recent first-hand experience that it is quite a lot of fun to just send in three Demon Princes via Demonic Gate (#351 – Gate (Demon Princes, Onyx Artifact) from the rulebook but #351 – Demonic Gate from the game interface) just to "dick around." It's way too early, yet, to see whether it will prove to be effective or not, but the Giants aren't actually my neighbor. I'm in Darkover, and the Giants started out in Mythgar.

My approach is geared towards using the Demon Princes in a supporting role - in support of my kingdom's ally, the Atlanteans. Additionally, I have started sending gold and food (and a little bit of Mithril) to the Atlanteans, in a bid to bolster that kingdom economically, as my Demon Princes seek to sow a little instability in the Giants' homeland of Mythgar, even as Giant military groups are shamelessly seizing Atlanteans population centers in Pellinor. In further support of these initiatives, I used a High Priestess to divine the location of Giant population centers in Mythgar.

The Atlanteans are under attack from both the Giants and the Red Dragon. By boosting the Atlanteans economy with gifts of food and gold, I seek to ensure that the Atlanteans' options, as far as which orders they can issue, remain more robust than they otherwise would be without my help.

I am also incorporating some information warfare tactics. For example, I create and modify maps to provide better (I like to think it's better, anyway) situational awareness. Just a few tricks that I learned playing Hyborian War, which I am now applying in a modified version here, in Alamaze. The diving of population centers by the High Priestess provides a better eye in the sky view, which facilitates better (and up-to-date) targeting schemes. Where the Giant-Atlantean conflict is concerned, I don't have to defeat the Giants. Rather, I simply have to affect the margin of difference sufficiently to (hopefully) prevent and preclude a Giant victory there in the Atlanteans' region of Pellinor.

Game 5703 isn't a game of Alamaze that I'm worried or preoccupied with trying to win. Rather, for me, it (along with several other games of Alamaze that I am currently playing in) is a learning game. What is a typical alliance like in Alamaze? Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. However, I am trying to put into effect certain practices that I think make for a good ally and a more solid alliance.

From what I have gathered over time, the Giants and the Red Dragon are both formidable military powers, even at game start. So, positing myself in opposition to the Giants, in this particular game of Alamaze, should facilitate me learning more about how to deal with militarily-powerful kingdoms.

Timely communication with my Atlantean ally allows me to know where the Giants' active military groups are currently located. This is the essence of situational awareness.

   

In order to better facilitate rapid visual identification of targets, I modify maps different ways, such as in the example, below, from Game 5703. It allows me to visually "consume" more data faster than having to look up each individual population center, one at a time, whenever I am trying to strategize and ponder the proverbial big picture.

   

There's more that I could say, but it would probably endanger operational security.

[Maximus Dominus]

One the one hand, immortal porting demons x 4 seems unbeatable.

I don't know about 4 Demon Princes, but I do have some small experience with 3 Demon Princes, now. Being fairly new to it all, sure, I had 3 Demon Prince characters at my disposal, but I didn't really know what to do with them, nor how to use them effectively. With 10 turns now behind me, my eyes are beginning to open to some of the possibilities that this kingdom offers those who play it.

Demonic Gates imbue the Demon Princes player with unlimited range combined with instantaneous appearance in any population center in the game, whether there's a military group there or not. In layman's terms, what this translates into are options and flexibility for the Demon Princes' player. The repertoire of capabilities that the Demon Princes possess combine to make possible what I would characterize as a prime disruptive force.

[unclemike]

The Demon Princes is one of my personal favorites and fun to play!

Maximus, you may get a 4th demon prince by achieving your Early Strategic Objective (ESO). One of the rewards is another demon prince so be sure to grab that one. Granting rewards for ESO are turns 10-15.

Also, you may want to hire more princes (human) to protect your demon princes. The reason why is that if your king/queen is ever kidnapped or assassinated, one of your demon princes becomes regent. So, to prevent that hire a bunch of normal princes for them to be inline to be regent, while leaving your demon princes alone.

Keep in mind that there are other uses for those valuable demon princes than just political purposes.

For example, you can summon skeletons as one of their special abilities. No other figure in the game can do that, only your demon princes which is pretty cool. And those skeletons really add up. In one game noted below, I summoned a crapload of skeletons starting on turn 1 and raised my wizards to pwr-5 for an unbeatable combo.

That unusual tactic of primarily using your demon princes to summon skeletons early on to develop a military force rather than using them solely as political purposes, ended up being rather fun to play. Having 3 demons summoning skeletons for 10 turns (30 skeleton brigades) plus 3 pwr-5 wizards casting Shield spell (stacks for 22.5 wizard levels total), meant that I had an unbeatable group by turn 10 that took very little damage due to all of that wizard shielding. This very game was the one that caused Rick to change the rules about not allowing skeletons until turn 4, and not allowing combat spells to stack (only one combat spell of each type per battle). Can't have a political kingdom like the Demon Princes have a stronger group than the military kingdoms at that stage of the game. My mistake for bragging about it on the forum...

In game 103 (July 2013) when Alamaze Resurgence made a comeback, I played the Demon Princes kingdom with that particular tactic (attaching one of my turns). Though I'm kind of surprised that I didn't convert all of my pwr-5 wizards into undead wraiths. That was one of my standard tactics to be able to cast 3 earthquake spells without worry of dying, and being more effective in battle than casting guarded attack or self-invisible spells. I think it was probably due to the kingdom receiving that spell at 6th level or something back then.

Anyway, as you can see those skeletons can really add up. That was back in 2nd Cycle, now with 4th Cycle Maelstrom, you can improve your skeletons that much more with experience (up to Elite status) and equip with improved armor/weapons, etc.

So, when you play the Demon Princes kingdom, you may want to consider to not only use them as political powerhouses, but also think about developing a cheap, and perhaps, unbeatable military group that costs very little in food/gold for the combat value that you're getting in return.

[Strongwill]

Only Evil kingdoms may summon undead if in spell lists. Undead brigades cannot become Elite. But like Mike said, still very formidable.

[Maximus Dominus]

Demonic Gates imbue the Demon Princes player with unlimited range combined with instantaneous appearance in any population center in the game, whether there's a military group there or not. In layman's terms, what this translates into are options and flexibility for the Demon Princes' player. The repertoire of capabilities that the Demon Princes possess combine to make possible what I would characterize as a prime disruptive force.

The term Prime Disruptive Force is, I think, an accurate characterization for the Demon Princes kingdom. With 15 turns in Game 5703 having now transpired, the Demon Princes (the characters) have wreaked havoc behind the Giants' front lines in their war against the Atlanteans.

I noticed on my Turn #15 turn results that 2GI, a division-sized military group, has now moved from the region of Pellinor back to Mythgar, and currently encamps at area UN, the town of Still Haven. No doubt it intends to try and gain control of that town back from my Demon Princes kingdom, which previously usurped it away from the Giants' control.

The town, itself, holds no inherent value or importance to me. It is little more than a bleep on the map. Besides, it isn't as though I can't simply wrest control of it back away from the Giants, again, in due time. The more important development, from my perspective, is the withdrawal of that Giants' military group from Pellinor, which is to the advantage of my Demon Princes' Atlantean ally. Thus far, in spite of early Giant gains against the Atlanteans, my Demon Princes appear to possess the capability to usurp Giant-held population centers faster than the Giants can conquer the Atlanteans.

To win the game over the long run, the Giants do not need to suffer such distractions early on. Thus, the Demon princes continue to disrupt the Giants' plan for early vanquishing of the Atlanteans. On this most recent turn, Turn #15, the Demon Princes gifted to the Atlanteans another 100,000 food and another 56,820 gold. In theory, the Giants' and the Red Dragon's coordinated conquest of Atlantean population centers should economically deprive the Atlanteans of their capability to engage in sustained warfare. Alamaze being a gold-dependency game design, eliminate the Atlanteans primary sources of gold, and you can suffocate their ability to resist and retaliate effectively. Thus, a coherent warfare doctrine thus dictates that one or more secondary sources of gold must replace the Atlanteans' primary sources of gold - namely, the Atlanteans' population centers.

The Red Dragons have left my Demon Princes alone, and I have reciprocated. What will the future hold? Who can truly say. To me, Game 5703 is a Learning Game, not a game of conquest and victory, per se. Is it to the Red Dragon's advantage to try and "save" the Giants from a predicament of the Giants' own making? That's a tough question to answer, for any Red Dragon intervention against the Demon Princes would not go unanswered. Players of war games tend to create their own criteria for "justification," so who knows how it all is going to play out? At this juncture of the game, it's simply unknowable.

The Giants and/or Red Dragon could possibly launch invasions of the Demon Princes' home region of Darkover. That, however, could potentially prove to be a challenge that could quickly turn against them. After all, it would extend their logistical dilemma. The four Demon Prince characters that now roam the map possess unlimited distance demonic gating capability. In essence, they can move faster than Giant, or even Red Dragon, armies. Can their armies, individually or collectively, outpace the demon princes' capacity for rebelling and usurping enemy population centers? After all, the Demon Princes kingdom set-up says:

Demon Princes control people through fear and magic. As such, regional reactions for the Demon Princes is never worse than halfway between Tolerant and Suspicious when they undertake political orders. This benefit is automatic and requires no further action to enable for the Demon Princes. 


For the very reason that I (the Demon Princes kingdom) have no actual plan, nor any priorities for rebelling and/or usurpation, it isn't possible for the Giants and/or Red Dragon to figure out my plan. A decentralized strategy is useful for playing the Demon Princes. Adapt and improvise each and every turn works well for this kingdom. At least, it has worked well for my Demon Princes kingdom in Alamaze Game 5703, thus far.

Are the Demon Princes overpowered? Maybe. Are they a fun kingdom to play? Oh, absolutely! Time will yet bear out whether my assessment of them as a kingdom is a bit too rosy.

For the Giants player to pull his 2GI group out of Pellinor and back into Mythgar is evidence of the Demon Princes' success at being a disruptive force, relative to the Giants' initial plan for the conquest of Pellinor. Of course, the Demon Princes haven't really gotten warmed up, yet, as the forthcoming Turn #16 will no doubt demonstrate.

When I play Hyborian War, I tend to play a reactionary strategy. I essence, my kingdom tends to react to what other players do, more so than to initiate strategy from scratch. This has the added benefit (to me, at least) of increasing the overall fog of war, simply because I don't even know what I am going to be doing, several turns from now. To me, that adds an additional layer of enjoyment to wargames for me.

It's been both fun and interesting, to observe how, if at all, the Giants player reacts to the Demon Princes' incursion into his realm. The way that Alamaze allows kingdoms' capitals to be cleanly and smoothly and with relative ease "moved" from one population center to another is a "feature" which raises my eyebrows. I have the game's new owner, Brekk, to thank for teaching me this valuable lesson in Game 5684, where I used it to aid in the eventual demise of the Elementalist player in that game. Talk about an Apokoliptian-sized Boom Tube!

Forget using Boom Tubes (demonic gates) to instantly teleport characters anywhere on the map, when every kingdom in the game has a massive Boom Tube in reserve for teleporting their "capitals" out of harm's way. Nothing says, however, that these massive population-center-sized Boom Tubes can only be used defensively, though. They can just as easily be used in an offensive capacity, though more specifically to the Demon Princes-Giant conflict that has developed (and is actually growing) in Game 5703, this massive Boom Tube is also useful as an instrument of disruptive warfare, specifically.

My approach to playing the Demon Princes kingdom in game 5703, thus far at least, is oriented around the philosophy of supporting my kingdom's Atlantean ally, come hell or high water (forgive the pun, please). It's not by coincidence that Demon Prince armies have largely been held in reserve. I can tell you this - playing the Demon Princes certainly conveys no discernible advantage in avoiding the loss of characters to investigations of unusual sightings gone bad.

To a large degree, I am still a relatively inexperienced Alamaze player, and when it comes to the military side of the game, I really am still pretty much a novice (if that much). But with more than 80 turns (all Learning Games, collectively) of first-hand experience playing Alamaze, now, the various scattered increments of experience that I have been acquiring here and there (in this game, and then in that game, etc. - wash, rinse, repeat), my chosen approach to learning to play Alamaze has not proven itself to be entirely in vain. At least, from my perspective that seems to be the case, anyway - thus far, at least.

In withdrawing his 2GI military group back to the region of Mythgar, the Giants player in Game 5703 has opened himself up to even greater vulnerability with Pellinor. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, maybe, but with secondary Demon Prince assets now being brought into play in this expanding Giants-Demon Princes conflict, the Giants player really needs to make sure that he's dotting is I's and crossing his T's every step of the way.

Currently, the Giants' are overextended, in a military sense. That kingdom seems to be somewhat in a state of disarray. Reactionary-based strategies can be fun, in that enemies have to try and guess what you plan to do, even and especially when you don't have a plan, and because they tend to compel other players to change or to drift away from their own original plans crafted very early in the game. And when players and their kingdoms begin to change their plans without really wanting to, danger lurks in the cracks and the crevices of all of the things that could go wrong.

[Maximus Dominus]

The Giants started out with Mythgar as their primary region of strength and control.

After 15 turns, this is what the Giant's holdings look like, from what my (the Demon Princes') map for Turn #15 reveals.

   

By the end of next turn, this map will likely see a noticeable increase in red, and a noticeable decrease in yellow. Since Red Dragon population centers have already been identified, intervention by the Red Dragon player into the growing Giants-Demon Princes conflict would only serve to expand the war, at a sharp cost to the Red Dragon player and kingdom.

Because I am playing to learn, rather than to win, individual losses upon the map hold no particular innate value to me. They don't move me closer to a point of fear or despair. At most, they are merely isolated, individual learning points, dots of learning on the map.

This game, thus far, is proving itself to be the gift that just keeps on giving, in terms of discerning the weaknesses and limitations of the Giants' kingdom, a military powerhouse at game start. The Giants' player in this game, Glowamane, is a vastly more experienced and significantly better player than I am. But the relative skill levels, expertise, mastery of the game's finer points, and experience as a player are only a part of a much bigger equation. Here, Glowamane is currently at disadvantage. But simultaneously, he hasn't been availing himself of some of his strengths as a player - and the result of that is self-evident, just by glancing at the map.

As a player, he could have chosen to try and communicate with me, another player, directly, in a bid to change the calculus of the war. Yet, he did not, and the end result of that is that I dangle his former population centers before him in his own home region, like mere visual pawns. His wholesale failure to act, at all, much less decisively, tells a tale that has proven itself to be to his continuing - and growing - disadvantage in game 5703.

Granted, he may yet figure a way out of the box that he has placed himself and his kingdom in, and kudos to him, if he does. Trying to weave a tale of Grand Alliance gold from the straw of mere words, though, is a gambit that is fraught with additional risks. Even the Lizard Kingdom granting him reprieve, and sparing the Giants' capital, won't be sufficient to save the Giant kingdom, from what I can see. All that does is knock the legs out from under the Lizards' role-playing. Warm-hearted, merciful lizards - what is Alamaze coming to?