Kingdoms and Legendaries

[davekuyk]

Having now played most kingdoms I find myself frustrated in the end game with certain kingdoms. Much of it revolves around the ability of a kingdom to take a legendary castle, as the ability to take these is often key to taking a region or even required in some cases. 

I am using a "baseline" legendary for this exercise, i.e. 220k defense. All of this is my opinion; please feel free to share your own.


I broke the kingdoms down into three tiers:

Tier 1: Kingdoms that have all the tools to conquer a legendary (normal wizards and troop options are sufficient)

Tier 2: Kingdoms that would require an unusual amount of development over the course of a game (some beyond max-wizards and heavy recruiting is needed)

Tier 3: Kingdoms that would require an extraordinary amount of development (multiple beyond-max wizards, with heavy recruiting, fully forged troops with numerous elite brigades)

Tier 4: Kingdoms that cannot take a legendary outside of the 1 in 100 game where all things align

There is some wiggle room of course - should the DW be a tier 2 or tier 3? Do all of the wizard kingdoms belong in tier 1?

The result is (IMHO) we have 10 kingdoms that cannot conquer legendary castles and another six that would need an extraordinary amount of development. 16 kingdoms. Is that OK for the health of the game? Is it OK that several military kingdoms are in tier 3 or 4?


Tier 1:

Alchemist
Deathknights
Druids
Elementalist
Giant
Illusionist
Necromancer
Sorcerer
Tyrant
Warlock

Tier 2:

Gnome
Scared Order
Dwarven
Dark Elven
Demon Princes
Lycans

Tier 3:

Amazons
Cimmerians
Lizard Men
Pirate
Red Dragon
Underworld

Tier 4:

Ancient Ones
Atlanteans
Black Dragon
Elven
Fairy Folk
Forgotten
Free Traders
Halfling
Nomad
Ranger

[Zar@shand]

This is also one of my concerns and the reason I don't play some of the nations.

Clearly there is still some rebalancing needed as some nations seem to have all the tools needed to take legendary castles, while others have none.

Most nations are capable of getting most of the things needed to take Legendary castles. Good leaders, troops, artifacts, wizards, 35% fear and 35% morale.

Then you will need at least one of the following Iron Golem, War machines or trolls for the extra % boost that these give.

Maybe a troll equivalent for good and neutral nations would help and an extra companion for the dragons to do similar.

[Pine Needle]

So funny, I thought about doing a breakdown of the kingdoms last night. There are for sure some kingdoms that are just turds, and only worth playing if you like a challenge (or pain).

Scared (Sacred) Order used to be bottom barrel. I wonder why you rank them so high? Siege engineering is nice. I don't see them at tier 2 at all- bad companions and bad wizards. How could they take a legendary? Is that your experience?

Deathknights need a serious nerf. They should be tier zero. They can stand the TY and GI early, kill wizards early, and stand the wizards late while their wizards dwarf the TY or GI. They are death and chaos immune. Companions are great, and each group easily can get 20 cheap skeletons at no cost. I'm taking legendaries in game 6014 right now with 1% casualties and no cast spells.

I'd start with the Pit Fiend. Its immolation works on attack, unlike Wall of Fire which only works on defense. So 25% damage (or more) in magic phase with no spell cast. I think Rick's point with DK was that the plague effect would cause other kingdoms to unite against them, but with the exception of Stormgate (sometimes), population really doesn't matter much. PC brigades are usually worthless except for a couple of ZA or WE brigades, and Stormgate Guard. So make that effect like Wall of Flame and the PF is not such a beast.

I think I also might take away seige engineering from them. Those would be two pretty good nerfs. If that didn't work, I'd bump them down a tier in magic.

[davekuyk]

The list isn't meant to be an overall ranking, but rather the ability to conquer a legendary castle.

Sacred Order I see them as tier 2 in this category (Tier 2: Kingdoms that would require an unusual amount of development over the course of a game (some beyond max-wizards and heavy recruiting is needed)).

I may overvalue siege engineering, but with barrage attack, multiple warlords, and an eye towards recruiting, I do believe the kingdom can set itself up to conquer legendary castles. It would not be the norm and it would be a struggle to have more than one group capable of the feat. It would also be an expensive group to maintain!

However, I can see how one would place them at tier 3.

[JohnnyUtah]

I managed to take a legendary with RA in 5873. I expected to take the castle easily with maybe 5% casualties, but instead took 21%.

Seems like this army group falls into tier 3 / Extraordinary amounts of development. Maybe 3x P9's pushes it into Tier 4... Either way, it wasn't easy.

Location: NP The Demon Princes Major City of Stormgate (def 200,023) is here in the plains of Stormgate.

Morale: 125% Attrition: 0.1% Terrain Modifier: +10% Defense: Good
Estimated total value in terrain: 305,712 Estimated value vs. PC: 215,199

By phase (excluding tactics, magic, and artifacts):
LR Missile: 36,381 SR Missile: 42,889 Charge: 64,502 Melee: 161,937 Storm: 69,852

Leaders: 3x Warlord
Wizards: P11+/P9/P9

Brigade Type Experience Number Morale Attrition Defense
Rangers Veteran 5 125% 0% Excellent
Rangers Regular 16 125% 0% Very Good
Vikings Regular 15 125% 0.2% Good
Rohirrim Regular 5 125% 0% Good
Wood Elves Regular 5 125% 0% Above Average


Equipment: Improved Armor, Improved Weaponry, Vorpal Blades
Artifacts: Morgal Blade, Ring of Power, Ring of Spells, Shield of Hector


Determined Attack

Spells:
P11 - Shield
P9 - Incendiary Cloud
P9 - Wind Storm

Ranger casualties were put at 21.55%.

[davekuyk]

Look at you with 29 levels of wizards Pretty nice.

I wonder if your success was more due to your presence than the spell choice. That's a lot of wizard power! I have had poor results with Shield in the past. Perhaps it plus Wind Storm is more effective vs a pop center? I do like to think a p-9 damage spell would be more effective than a Wind Storm which could be cast by a p-4.

[Wynand]

Hey that was my castle! Grrrrr….

Having now played most kingdoms I find myself frustrated in the end game with certain kingdoms. Much of it revolves around the ability of a kingdom to take a legendary castle, as the ability to take these is often key to taking a region or even required in some cases. 

I am using a "baseline" legendary for this exercise, i.e. 220k defense. All of this is my opinion; please feel free to share your own.


I broke the kingdoms down into three tiers:

Tier 1: Kingdoms that have all the tools to conquer a legendary (normal wizards and troop options are sufficient)

Tier 2: Kingdoms that would require an unusual amount of development over the course of a game (some beyond max-wizards and heavy recruiting is needed)

Tier 3: Kingdoms that would require an extraordinary amount of development (multiple beyond-max wizards, with heavy recruiting, fully forged troops with numerous elite brigades)

Tier 4: Kingdoms that cannot take a legendary outside of the 1 in 100 game where all things align

There is some wiggle room of course - should the DW be a tier 2 or tier 3? Do all of the wizard kingdoms belong in tier 1?

The result is (IMHO) we have 10 kingdoms that cannot conquer legendary castles and another six that would need an extraordinary amount of development. 16 kingdoms. Is that OK for the health of the game? Is it OK that several military kingdoms are in tier 3 or 4?


Tier 1:

Alchemist
Deathknights
Druids
Elementalist
Giant
Illusionist
Necromancer
Sorcerer
Tyrant
Warlock

Tier 2:

Gnome
Scared Order
Dwarven
Dark Elven
Demon Princes
Lycans

Tier 3:

Amazons
Cimmerians
Lizard Men
Pirate
Red Dragon
Underworld

Tier 4:

Ancient Ones
Atlanteans
Black Dragon
Elven
Fairy Folk
Forgotten
Free Traders
Halfling
Nomad
Ranger

[Strongwill]

Look at you with 29 levels of wizards Pretty nice.

I wonder if your success was more due to your presence than the spell choice. That's a lot of wizard power! I have had poor results with Shield in the past. Perhaps it plus Wind Storm is more effective vs a pop center? I do like to think a p-9 damage spell would be more effective than a Wind Storm which could be cast by a p-4.

Funny thing about shield, it improves the defense of troop types (most likely 5% per lvl which is standard % increase with spells) but troops have a defensive value already assigned. So a Ranger brigade would get less value to an increase than say a skeleton brigade would. A Red Dragon being one of the top brigade values can only see a small increase with it, as it’s already close to max level of strength, but lower and weaker brigades get huge value because they have a great deal of level to improve to the higher/highest level.

Does that make sense? Imo