Buddy/Ignore List
09-24-2025, 11:26 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2025, 11:55 PM by Lord Moontree..)
I absolutely LOVE the idea of fortifications. This game mechanic offers up very interesting choices to players. Bravo!!
I have some game concerns related to the Motte and Bailey and the Fortress. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts as maybe I am overlooking something.
1. Motte and Bailey.
Very colorful for a small village hamlet and fits perfectly in theme! However, I think I would never build one as it seems like it would make no difference mechanically. It costs 4000 gold and 8000 food. Let's look at the defensive boost. This upgrade adds 2000 defense and a +1.8 loss divider. The problem is that villages only have a 3000-4000 defense. So except in the very early game, adding 2000 defense just simply does nothing to an army that wants to attack it. Also, in the early game, noone would like spend an order and the gold/food to build this. As soon as it's turn 5 or so, it becomes irrelevant.
The upgrade also comes with a +1 status quo. This modifier also seems very unlikely to ever matter. The +10 counter-espionage seems lack luster as who is really conducting agent missions against a village? Adding +0.1 influence is okay but not really that impactful.
Given that there is also a -500 food/gold production loss, does anyone ever build Motte and Bailey's and if so, to what game purpose? It seems to me that the benefits of this have to be really ramped up significantly (e.g. +10,000 defense, +3 status quo, +400 status, and elimating the food/gold loss I think just to start). Thoughts?
2. Fortress
The problem I see with the Fortress is that I think I'd never build it over a Castle. With a Castle I can later upgrade it to Greater Castle and Legendary Castle - so I have additional options. And Legendary Castles come with status points as well.
The Fortress costs the same (30,000 gold and 60,000 food) as a Castle. These two upgrades have identical bonuses with regard to defense, loss divider, and counter-espionage. Unique/relative to each is ...
Fortress: +20% census, +0.2 influence
Castle: +1 status quo, -2000 food/gold production
It seems like by the time I'm building a Fortress, I won't care that much about a -2000 food/gold hit and I might as well benefit from the +1 status quo from a Castle instead. I don't see ever building a Fortress.
Same question as above - do people ever build Fortresses on towns and if so, for what game purpose? It seems to me the Fortress could follow the lead of the Citadel by offering a better starting position but not upgradable. In other words, for a city I would consider building a Citadel instead of a Castle since I get more benefit up front at the opportunity cost of not being able to upgrade it later. This introduces an interesting choice. So, along those lines, what if a Fortress was something like +800 status, +25,000 defense (vs. +15,000), +2.7 loss divider (vs. +2.4 and this would be in line with the Citadel), and +40 counter-espionage. I would also suggest increasing the Citadel to +40 counter-espionage would make sense thematically and mechanically as well since PC's with a Fortress/Citadel could be seen to be more aggressively going after insurgents and the Citadel could probably use a little boost also relative to the Castle -> Greater Castle -> Lendary Castle route.
Anyway, just wanted to get people's thoughts on this. Do anyone currently build Motte and Bailey's or Fortresses?
I have some game concerns related to the Motte and Bailey and the Fortress. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts as maybe I am overlooking something.
1. Motte and Bailey.
Very colorful for a small village hamlet and fits perfectly in theme! However, I think I would never build one as it seems like it would make no difference mechanically. It costs 4000 gold and 8000 food. Let's look at the defensive boost. This upgrade adds 2000 defense and a +1.8 loss divider. The problem is that villages only have a 3000-4000 defense. So except in the very early game, adding 2000 defense just simply does nothing to an army that wants to attack it. Also, in the early game, noone would like spend an order and the gold/food to build this. As soon as it's turn 5 or so, it becomes irrelevant.
The upgrade also comes with a +1 status quo. This modifier also seems very unlikely to ever matter. The +10 counter-espionage seems lack luster as who is really conducting agent missions against a village? Adding +0.1 influence is okay but not really that impactful.
Given that there is also a -500 food/gold production loss, does anyone ever build Motte and Bailey's and if so, to what game purpose? It seems to me that the benefits of this have to be really ramped up significantly (e.g. +10,000 defense, +3 status quo, +400 status, and elimating the food/gold loss I think just to start). Thoughts?
2. Fortress
The problem I see with the Fortress is that I think I'd never build it over a Castle. With a Castle I can later upgrade it to Greater Castle and Legendary Castle - so I have additional options. And Legendary Castles come with status points as well.
The Fortress costs the same (30,000 gold and 60,000 food) as a Castle. These two upgrades have identical bonuses with regard to defense, loss divider, and counter-espionage. Unique/relative to each is ...
Fortress: +20% census, +0.2 influence
Castle: +1 status quo, -2000 food/gold production
It seems like by the time I'm building a Fortress, I won't care that much about a -2000 food/gold hit and I might as well benefit from the +1 status quo from a Castle instead. I don't see ever building a Fortress.
Same question as above - do people ever build Fortresses on towns and if so, for what game purpose? It seems to me the Fortress could follow the lead of the Citadel by offering a better starting position but not upgradable. In other words, for a city I would consider building a Citadel instead of a Castle since I get more benefit up front at the opportunity cost of not being able to upgrade it later. This introduces an interesting choice. So, along those lines, what if a Fortress was something like +800 status, +25,000 defense (vs. +15,000), +2.7 loss divider (vs. +2.4 and this would be in line with the Citadel), and +40 counter-espionage. I would also suggest increasing the Citadel to +40 counter-espionage would make sense thematically and mechanically as well since PC's with a Fortress/Citadel could be seen to be more aggressively going after insurgents and the Citadel could probably use a little boost also relative to the Castle -> Greater Castle -> Lendary Castle route.
Anyway, just wanted to get people's thoughts on this. Do anyone currently build Motte and Bailey's or Fortresses?
