#300 - Experimental

[Hawk_]

My 2 cents on the GI attack ratio:

A group with more or less giants/ogres as a % of the combat points will fight very differently.

Also groups with higher morale and leaders seem to do better than groups with more brigades in my experience. They experience lower losses relative to a group with equal attack value and less morale. May have been a factor here.

There are some random factors with combat and I have seen surprise failures with attack ratios similar to yours in the past.

[Beatific]

My 2 cents on the GI attack ratio:

A group with more or less giants/ogres as a % of the combat points will fight very differently.

Also groups with higher morale and leaders seem to do better than groups with more brigades in my experience. They experience lower losses relative to a group with equal attack value and less morale. May have been a factor here.

There are some random factors with combat and I have seen surprise failures with attack ratios similar to yours in the past.

That actually makes sense here. Thanks!

[Hawk_]

Well I am surprised I took the region kind of wish I didn't. Basically assures me there are no cities to be found. Spend a lot of extra orders fighting with the boards in this region. I am sure the DW is having a hard time getting control maybe because 4 of his PCs would normally fall in R2 are now R3 including one R3 PC in the Sea of Terror! Get your boats ready Dwarf your going swimming.

Thing with the Random cities. If one region has 3 and another has 0. That is about a 60k swing in gold. Well more than 50% I make controlling this region. That is a Hugh advantage that makes the game become more luck based than skill for victory. I thought about this and the clumping of PCs here is what I came up with.

Cities - 0 to 3 cities - number of cities will modify number of other PCs in region
0 cities - plus 2 towns. - say two because with cities at random spots they really become strong holds now and are an advantage.
1 city - no effect
2 cities - minus 1 town
3 cities - minus 3 towns plus 1 village
Special R5 has 1 extra city Avalon. Everyone knows where it is and helps insure R5 is bigger on average as it should be being in the center of the map.
Placing PCs subdivide the region into 4 areas of equal squares for PC placement purposes only. Have three random ways to subdivide either Rows, Columns, or quadrants. Then randomly place PCs starting with cities in each area going from quadrant to quadrants. Example. R10 is shaped kind of like a shoe is gets randomly divided into columns. R10 is 71 squaresslightly bigger than average regions so would have 4 columns of 18 18 18 and 17 squares. First column would be K-P take out WP and add to next column going from Q-T. Part of T would be split into column 3 and so on until you have 4 divided areas. Not place PCs starting with a random column number, we will use 2. And will use a set up of 2 cities 6 towns(7 randomly rolled minus 1 for two cities) and 9 villages. Columns would have
C1 - 2 towns, 2 villages
C2 - 1 city, 1 town, 3 villages
C3 - 1 city, 1 town, 2 villages
C4 - 2 towns, 2 villages
It is still possible to have clumps but small clusters and more likely to be divided around the region.

My suggestion-

Cap region population based on number of starting capitols in the region.
420,000 +or - 5%.

Increase population 50% for an extra starting capitol.

Roll for # Cities

Subtract cities from the total.

Divide the remaining population 2/3 towns and 1/3 villages.

Place all the PC's randomly in the region.

Apply any regional population modifier to all pop centers


If you have no city you will then get roughly 2 extra towns.

Regions with more than one starting kingdom will have more to split but less than somebody with their own region.

[Jumpingfist]

Well I am surprised I took the region kind of wish I didn't. Basically assures me there are no cities to be found. Spend a lot of extra orders fighting with the boards in this region. I am sure the DW is having a hard time getting control maybe because 4 of his PCs would normally fall in R2 are now R3 including one R3 PC in the Sea of Terror! Get your boats ready Dwarf your going swimming.

Thing with the Random cities. If one region has 3 and another has 0. That is about a 60k swing in gold. Well more than 50% I make controlling this region. That is a Hugh advantage that makes the game become more luck based than skill for victory. I thought about this and the clumping of PCs here is what I came up with.

Cities - 0 to 3 cities - number of cities will modify number of other PCs in region
0 cities - plus 2 towns. - say two because with cities at random spots they really become strong holds now and are an advantage.
1 city - no effect
2 cities - minus 1 town
3 cities - minus 3 towns plus 1 village
Special R5 has 1 extra city Avalon. Everyone knows where it is and helps insure R5 is bigger on average as it should be being in the center of the map.
Placing PCs subdivide the region into 4 areas of equal squares for PC placement purposes only. Have three random ways to subdivide either Rows, Columns, or quadrants. Then randomly place PCs starting with cities in each area going from quadrant to quadrants. Example. R10 is shaped kind of like a shoe is gets randomly divided into columns. R10 is 71 squaresslightly bigger than average regions so would have 4 columns of 18 18 18 and 17 squares. First column would be K-P take out WP and add to next column going from Q-T. Part of T would be split into column 3 and so on until you have 4 divided areas. Not place PCs starting with a random column number, we will use 2. And will use a set up of 2 cities 6 towns(7 randomly rolled minus 1 for two cities) and 9 villages. Columns would have
C1 - 2 towns, 2 villages
C2 - 1 city, 1 town, 3 villages
C3 - 1 city, 1 town, 2 villages
C4 - 2 towns, 2 villages
It is still possible to have clumps but small clusters and more likely to be divided around the region.

My suggestion-

Cap region population based on number of starting capitols in the region.
420,000 +or - 5%.

Increase population 50% for an extra starting capitol.

Roll for # Cities

Subtract cities from the total.

Divide the remaining population 2/3 towns and 1/3 villages.

Place all the PC's randomly in the region.

Apply any regional population modifier to all pop centers


If you have no city you will then get roughly 2 extra towns.

Regions with more than one starting kingdom will have more to split but less than somebody with their own region.

I like that your giving bonus for regions with multiple capitals. Really encourages the two to work together because they both know they are actually getting a bigger region since they are both in it.

[Airborne Ranger]

The commands say 2:1 for attacking pop centers and in this case it sounds like you didn't have that even with the straight defense. There is also always a modifier that is random so as I said- I probably scored high on rolls for once and you didn't. Taking a capital you never really want to have less than 2.5:1 and that would only really be for RD, GI or TR (my thoughts anyway). If you'll recall when we were talking on turn 1 and you threatened me I said "Go ahead and impale yourself on my walls." You did that just fine. :-) I offered you an NAP but you insisted on attacking me for not agreeing to a full alliance. That qualifies as greedy in my book.

Now you have lost 7-8 brigades of troops by turn 4. And I know they're not all ogres. Somehow you've drug the Sorceror into this but if he's smart he can see you're already a shell of your former self.

Good luck, there are more surprises for both of us to come I'm sure.

To all other kingdoms: As you can clearly see the Giant has barely any military left and the Sorceror is ganging up on the lowly Nomad too. Synisvania should be wide open if your regions are feeling crowded.

Dune. Arakkis. Desert Planet.

What has the SO done besides ally with the GI? So anyone that allies with your enemy is after you? You seem to be pretty pissed about everything, relax. But now as you have divulged game play results to all and basically called out GI I feel no sympathy towards you. He just played his position, he did not come up with the battle results, I do not get your mean spiritedness to GI? I am not sure that was a word but you get my point.

[Acererak]

Beatific - In this game since it's experimental I think there is a lot more being shared in the forum than any other game. I have never personally seen anyone put out personal details like capital locations on the board. There is typically more of a gentleman's agreement I have found. Just to be clear, no one is offended by you attacking me for no reason - it's just puzzling to me. The full background is I offered to help guide you and a 5 turn NAP to explore the new regions and hidden pop centers, but you gave me an ultimatum of game long alliance or you attacking me. I declined and you followed up on our attack. That's up to you. Somehow and for some reason the Sorceror is now also jumping in against me- but as you note, the RD is also in the Sands (as well as the UN). So I'm not sure there are a ton of spoils for you both to split while making a game long enemy. Those are all things to consider in the future.

As to the condition of your armies, I know what you started with and what you have now so it is just a plain fact that your military is gutted and you have as of yet not taken a single pop center from me.

The reason I'm asking for help on the forum is because I certainly am at a disadvantage taking on the 2nd most powerful military in the game along with 2nd most powerful wizard without any provocation.

Still, no worries. This is a game of conquest so understand you don't need a causus belli. This game is more crowded than most.

I'm mostly just happy to see UM's engine seems to work well and automated. Would love to have all games automated and potentially have some more hyper games of 48 hour turnaround.

[Acererak]

The commands say 2:1 for attacking pop centers and in this case it sounds like you didn't have that even with the straight defense. There is also always a modifier that is random so as I said- I probably scored high on rolls for once and you didn't. Taking a capital you never really want to have less than 2.5:1 and that would only really be for RD, GI or TR (my thoughts anyway). If you'll recall when we were talking on turn 1 and you threatened me I said "Go ahead and impale yourself on my walls." You did that just fine. :-) I offered you an NAP but you insisted on attacking me for not agreeing to a full alliance. That qualifies as greedy in my book.

Now you have lost 7-8 brigades of troops by turn 4. And I know they're not all ogres. Somehow you've drug the Sorceror into this but if he's smart he can see you're already a shell of your former self.

Good luck, there are more surprises for both of us to come I'm sure.

To all other kingdoms: As you can clearly see the Giant has barely any military left and the Sorceror is ganging up on the lowly Nomad too. Synisvania should be wide open if your regions are feeling crowded.

Dune. Arakkis. Desert Planet.

What has the SO done besides ally with the GI? So anyone that allies with your enemy is after you? You seem to be pretty pissed about everything, relax. But now as you have divulged game play results to all and basically called out GI I feel no sympathy towards you. He just played his position, he did not come up with the battle results, I do not get your mean spiritedness to GI? I am not sure that was a word but you get my point.

Well, since the Sorceror is allied with a guy that attacked me for no reason and is sitting at one of my pop centers this turn with a Division- yea, I'm pretty sure that he's going to attack me. Who's pissed off? I'm not exactly singing GI praisies but why would I be super friendly with someone who attacked me for no reason? Is that how you act? Let me know where your capital is and I'll come attack it and then you can get on the board and talk about what a swell guy I am.

Finally, the GM divulged results without even asking Airborne - this is an experimental game. Did you not notice that? The whole point is to make sure things are working well so I posted the results because of some curious results.

[Airborne Ranger]

Beatific - In this game since it's experimental I think there is a lot more being shared in the forum than any other game. I have never personally seen anyone put out personal details like capital locations on the board. There is typically more of a gentleman's agreement I have found. Just to be clear, no one is offended by you attacking me for no reason - it's just puzzling to me. The full background is I offered to help guide you and a 5 turn NAP to explore the new regions and hidden pop centers, but you gave me an ultimatum of game long alliance or you attacking me. I declined and you followed up on our attack. That's up to you. Somehow and for some reason the Sorceror is now also jumping in against me- but as you note, the RD is also in the Sands (as well as the UN). So I'm not sure there are a ton of spoils for you both to split while making a game long enemy. Those are all things to consider in the future.

As to the condition of your armies, I know what you started with and what you have now so it is just a plain fact that your military is gutted and you have as of yet not taken a single pop center from me.

The reason I'm asking for help on the forum is because I certainly am at a disadvantage taking on the 2nd most powerful military in the game along with 2nd most powerful wizard without any provocation.

Still, no worries. This is a game of conquest so understand you don't need a causus belli. This game is more crowded than most.

I'm mostly just happy to see UM's engine seems to work well and automated. Would love to have all games automated and potentially have some more hyper games of 48 hour turnaround.

I agree, NO capital location should not have been divulged, that was wrong. I did not read all the forum posts about all of this. NO I apologize, I would have been pissed too.

[The Broken]

So much angst for a test game that costs nothing, means nothing, and represents nothing, anywhere. We are here to TEST the game. Thats it. So relax, save the anger for something that matters.

[Beatific]

The GM posted my capital location without even asking me by posting the battle details a turn ago so obviously that isn't a secret. I actually know what you have, and where you are. Order 691, it can be helpful. 1GI WAS a full division (5 brigades), now it's 1. For no gain. It wasn't 1 GI and 4 Ogres.

*** GROUPS: ***
GROUP BRIGADES OF
I.D. BRIG'S: REG AREA LEADERS: WIZARDS RECRUITS

1GI 1 10 VV GENERAL I VERGARA ANTONIUS (POWER-1) 0
NA NA
NA NA

OK, thats pretty funny. Not the no gain part....the na na na na part. No arguing the no gain part. And no comment on the composition of 1GI. And yes, I did find out about 1RD being there. But not about UR. Interesting. As i said, a region 10 free for all develops. And in SOs defense, as far as I know, he is not actively involved with attacks on you at all. He is just my ally which would have occurred whether we went to war or not. As for your intentions I only know what you say, not what you intend or perceive as a threat. A four turn NAP is nothing, especially on turn 1. But maybe that is me. As I said, I am a NooB and only have non Alamaze game experience to draw from. It is why I am so loquacious on the forums. I seek education. As for the diplomacy style, I did not actually intend to find your capital or to force you to cooperate at a point of a gun. Only use the opportunity provided by the leverage to bring up the offer of an alliance. As you pointed out in our email, my original force was not even a threat to you (and a larger force obviously was not either) and you do so again here, so you had no intention of allying anyway. You did offer to mentor which I actually put the heaviest weight in all this discussion and I genuinely appreciate. So, really, as I said, for my part I bear you no ill will at all outside of the game.

My take on diplomacy: A 15 turn NAP (or somesuch) would have been fine. But again, there is no experience base to draw from other than my first game wherein I was able to secure a 15 turn NAP from an experienced player who did not want to battle me in that time period. So clearly a 4 turn NAP (which would likely give you the region and a chance to really get going militarily) was clearly a non offer. But, again, maybe that is just me. In either case, as you point out, this is a war game and one can hardly play it without going to war. Which is indeed the spirit in which I undertake this.

As for forum behavior, the line you continue to draw with in game talk seems to be suspiciously self serving. I cannot reveal capital locations, but you can freely use your ingame intelligence information to divulge to everyone what you believe the state of my military is (as you do again here with your 691 order results). And add the insulting "Na na na na" on top of it No one else has chimed in about what one can say or what one cannot say so, setting aside your self serving advice but rather focusing on your continued behavior, I am left with the conclusion that one can say or reveal anything. I have no need to right now since, as you point out, your capital location was already revealed, but I am intrigued by the non response of other vets or site admins - even as an admonition to your obvious reference to the order used and the exact info yielded.......this indeed seems to be a gray area available for exploitation (albeit at a cost of reputation and credibility). Very interesting, indeed. Thanks for the implicit lesson! Very important for NooBs to understand......failure to do so could very well turn one off on the citizens of the site. For example, if I were not so keenly insightful (joking) and transparent in my reasoning, I would simply get disgusted at your clear double standard and the lack of forum response and leave. In individual PMs I have heard similar complaints from NooBs (ok actually one NooB) who said something very similar to this. I don't think it is a good idea to leave house rules (forum rules) undefined because in the 40+ years of gaming I have behind me, the number one reason for angry arguments is the lack of house rules on what can be said and done outside of the written rules of the game. So, I am taking considerable pains to define it clearly and ask someone with no dog in the fight to say (or not say - which is still an answer) something - yea or nay. Right now, the answer is "all table talk is allowed and encouraged" and "anything goes" on what table talk is (cap locations, spell results, everything).

Again, Ace, not aimed at you - except for the observations of what you are doing and the clear description of it as I am seeing it.