#158 - Primeval 3 v 3, East vs West

[Beatific]

Thanks Beatific for getting why I posted it in the first place.  this is the second game i have effectively been accused of cheating with super PC powers.  Both games the number of PC found were well within the norm for how many squares I searched.  

In this case I found 5 PCs in 22 squares scouted.  it has been well documented PC are 1 in 4 throughout alamaze finding 4 of the 5 as villages was actually unlucky even.  I am trying to set myself up for success by scouting as much as possible.  nobody wrote complains when I scouted 19 squares in another game on T1 to find 1 village.  it happens I keep moving on with it.

Everyone focuses in on the blink scouting with emmies.  in this case I could have used my two P1s to scout the same squares.  would have been free and given me information of both a PC or US or if I group had moved onto the location.   Moving the emmy does have a cost in that you get less information but has a reward you could get some extra gold on turn 3.  another cost is you must leave that much extra just incase they land on something.  Also if you land on two villages now you do not have town taking emmies for T2.  I think they should cost normal cost to try and move them but really should not have been a focus on complaining.  It was simply a preference but changed nothing in the outcome of events.

No one accused you of cheating this game, I cannot comment on first time because I do not know about it, just asking how is it possible. Seeing your explanation it seems there needs to be better randomizing of pc's and a much higher cost for blind recons if veteran player basically knows where pc's will be. It is an unfair advantage not better play. Obviously if finding pc's is not important to the game they would all be given to us at start so we all would have a even chance of gaining them, so knowing where hidden pc's MIGHT be is an advantage by just playing more and logging where they might be on first turn.
 Again the cost for using an emmy should be paid for this if you do not find pc and maybe the emmy should be "lost in the wild" for a turn and not be able to be used following turn if he misses finding a pc? That may balance out the advantage veteran players have if they might suffer a set back by trying this move.
People please stop being thin skinned, I thought the question of how getting 2 regions on turn 5 was reasonable as most players have a hard time getting 1 by that time, something did not seem right so I asked. No rules were broken as I said but lets level the playing field for all, knowing where pc's might be because you played a lot is not better playing but more played games and logging where set ups are more likely to place pc's. I am guessing there are only so many set ups for pc out there in the system? I don't know, but geez chill out, I know I was not the only one wondering how you did it.

I think Uncle Mike's efforts should pay great dividends here.  Scrambling PC locations (and numbers) will certainly fix this particular problem in the future.  The downside, of course, is that if you get unlucky and cannot locate PCs quickly, you are pretty much knocked out of the game economically.  Like most 4x games, what happens economically in the first few turns dominates the rest of the game.  Of course, the HP can somewhat offset this if you save the money for her (or start with her).  Not sure if there is a structural fix to the "tough luck chum" unless, of course, other viable options exist to build you economy.  I have tried building gold mines myself, but they just don't seem to cut it.  The economic growth curve is simply insufficient in comparison with getting a region (in the North, with winter, break even for gold mine investment is roughly turn 12 (after converting food).  Taking a region breakeven is immediate (actually well into the black for food and gold).  So this imbalance pretty much leads to the recognition amongst experienced gamers that the lead is insurmountable.  I am seeing it in other games and am wondering if the southern races have too much of an additional advantage in not having their starvation turns until well past that initial critical growth curve.  Just thinking out loud here folks.  Please comment or don't as you see fit.

[Jumpingfist]

Take away what every you guys like. I was nice enough to explain how to get two regions by turn 5. The fact is moving the emmies blind had no effect on taking the region, I would have just used 888 orders instead. Ry Vor has said no body knows PC locations he is speaking from fact I say I think I see some spots they may show up more often I am a player looking for an edge. The numbers back Ry Vor, 22 squares 5 PC is almost a perfect 1 in 4 which are the odds of finding a PC in alamaze.

As to the experience of starting terrain like knowing the BL has a PC always in the mountain. I did not learn this from game play I learned it from reading the forums. Freaking Magic!

For those that still think it is just knowing PCs. Game 300 was fully random PCs. I gained the first region a turn before anyone else. That was with jacked up boarders and moving emmies into others regions that normally would have fallen into mine.

[Drogo]

I believe they have already instituted the change where it now costs for emissary use even if they do not find a PC, this greatly balances the risk reward in itself.

[Drogo]

We might also want to consider that in this particular setup the RA has a very good chance at being the first kingdom to take a second region, R10 is just waiting unopposed for him. I think that's balanced by the West having an advantage in some of the other regions though. Avalon is easy pickings for the West and the EL should be able to beat the DW into R2 most times.

My real concern with this format is that it will too often be decided before the 2 teams really have a chance to do battle. Whomever picks up the preponderance of early regions will have a great advantage and the game may be essentially over before too many battles are fought. Looking forward to hearing updates from the new East vs West game forming.

[Jumpingfist]

We might also want to consider that in this particular setup the RA has a very good chance at being the first kingdom to take a second region, R10 is just waiting unopposed for him.  I think that's balanced by the West having an advantage in some of the other regions though.  Avalon is easy pickings for the West and the EL should be able to beat the DW into R2 most times.

My real concern with this format is that it will too often be decided before the 2 teams really have a chance to do battle.  Whomever picks up the preponderance of early regions will have a great advantage and the game may be essentially over before too many battles are fought.  Looking forward to hearing updates from the new East vs West game forming.

I agree Drogo.  RA is likely to get R10.  The GN can use the same idea I laid out for the RA to take R8 more quickly likely knowing the RA will be working in R10.  RA could challenge for R8 instead of R10 but that is where the TR comes in.

the sides I think are well balanced.  TR starts with a town and military in Amberland.  EL starts with a town in R2 vs DW village there.   The east has better diplomats and can take things more quickly to start.  the West has the military advantage with the TR.  but even the EL can beat any of the Eastern kingdom in the forest.  GN and DW each share an advantage of already being friendly in there starting region allowing them to expend quickly.

many other possible tactics that actually could make this a fun game for experienced players as well.  like using the DW portal to cause havoc on the GN or prioritizing finding the TR portal to crush the RA as he expands to quickly.

I enjoyed the game and love playing in these team type game where you can work out plans with other team mates in a format that you are suppose to act as a team.