Change is Inevitable

[HeadHoncho]

I agree with Rick... although the setbacks from these three items may not be truly game-ending for the most experienced and/or determined, the reality is that most players will be so discouraged as to lose interest or drop. Alamaze is already a steep learning curve, I don't think there's any need for it to remain as steep as it is with these three items.

[HeadHoncho]

I would add, however, that there may be two ways of skinning this cat. On the sea power, a general change/overhaul makes sense... as Rick indicates, my own feeling after an initial bad experience was just never to mess with the seas at all.

On Chaos, you could have Chaos at a similar level that simply increases the damage an enemy takes upon retreat. And you could add Greater Chaos at a significantly higher level (perhaps lower by a level for chaos-themed Kingdoms) that functions as-is.

On the Invisibility tree of spells, you could simply cap it out at Division, like ambush. I've always kind of thought that it's a bit ridiculous for even mighty magic to be able to completely mask (including sounds, smells, etc.) a group of army or army-group size, anyway.

Of course, five GI or RD brigades would still be a punch in the mouth, but maybe you could tweak the levels for Invisible Brigade and Division for some of the strongest military Kingdoms as well...

[Hawk_]

I would add, however, that there may be two ways of skinning this cat. On the sea power, a general change/overhaul makes sense... as Rick indicates, my own feeling after an initial bad experience was just never to mess with the seas at all.

On Chaos, you could have Chaos at a similar level that simply increases the damage an enemy takes upon retreat. And you could add Greater Chaos at a significantly higher level (perhaps lower by a level for chaos-themed Kingdoms) that functions as-is.

On the Invisibility tree of spells, you could simply cap it out at Division, like ambush. I've always kind of thought that it's a bit ridiculous for even mighty magic to be able to completely mask (including sounds, smells, etc.) a group of army or army-group size, anyway.

Of course, five GI or RD brigades would still be a punch in the mouth, but maybe you could tweak the levels for Invisible Brigade and Division for some of the strongest military Kingdoms as well...

Is part of the problem with Invisible the effectiveness of the slay wizard spell?

Maybe a failed Slay spell could have a chance of death for the caster. Or the loss of a power level or something. Agents risk death with their failure.

Also re: Invisible: I wish there was a divination for ALL active groups in a given square. I want to know what is invisible in the square my group is located. There could be multiple kingdoms invisble.

Sometimes I am not as concerned with invisble groups in the entire region.

[Grybu]

I have no concept as the game has been alive for much too much time for a newbie to talk about balance, but my instinct is to divide the rule sets into three tiers of sophistication.

The first tier focuses on what a new player can learn in 1-3 sittings. 90% of the revenue might derive from this.

The second tier focuses on serious players with 5-10 games of experience.

The third is for the real pros. They develop the tier of the game for real players who are truely in it to win it, can compete, and create variations to satisfy their curiosity on those variations.

Just for what little it's worth at this point, I barely understand the rule after about half a game.

[Ry Vor]

I would add, however, that there may be two ways of skinning this cat. On the sea power, a general change/overhaul makes sense... as Rick indicates, my own feeling after an initial bad experience was just never to mess with the seas at all.

On Chaos, you could have Chaos at a similar level that simply increases the damage an enemy takes upon retreat. And you could add Greater Chaos at a significantly higher level (perhaps lower by a level for chaos-themed Kingdoms) that functions as-is.

On the Invisibility tree of spells, you could simply cap it out at Division, like ambush. I've always kind of thought that it's a bit ridiculous for even mighty magic to be able to completely mask (including sounds, smells, etc.) a group of army or army-group size, anyway.

Of course, five GI or RD brigades would still be a punch in the mouth, but maybe you could tweak the levels for Invisible Brigade and Division for some of the strongest military Kingdoms as well...

Is part of the problem with Invisible the effectiveness of the slay wizard spell? You can kill a 5 with a 4 75% of the time and the failure has little downside.

Maybe a failed Slay spell could have a chance of death for the caster. Or the loss of a power level or something. Agents risk death with their failure.

Also re: Invisible: I wish there was a divination for ALL active groups in a given square. I want to know what is invisible in the square my group is located. There could be multiple kingdoms invisble.

Sometimes I am not as concerned with invisble groups in the entire region.

HeadHoncho,

Your notes are quite close to what I have in mind.

Hawk, very useful comments and also under consideration. Not sure the math on the kill wizard is correct, though.

Grybu, I was expecting some distribution close to that when planning it in March, but after 3 months, its about 50% Commander and up. The Scouts are generally the "Duelmasters to Alamaze" players and the new signees - maybe 11 in the last two games.

[Cipher]

I think where Grybu is heading is having games reserved for players of certain tenure, or perhaps status points. So, say a game where all players have to have fewer than 5000 status points, or a game reserved for players with more than 20,000 status points. I don't think this will work until the player population is 3x - 5x what it is now, and returning players would start with an advantage over truly new players...

[Ry Vor]

I think where Grybu is heading is having games reserved for players of certain tenure, or perhaps status points. So, say a game where all players have to have fewer than 5000 status points, or a game reserved for players with more than 20,000 status points. I don't think this will work until the player population is 3x - 5x what it is now, and returning players would start with an advantage over truly new players...

I agree. I don't want to have many open game queues, I want players to get into games as quickly as they can and their open game slots/points provide. As everyone that monitors this forum has seen, that's what we do. We try to offer requested variants, as in 1 per week, or custom Titan, or non-diplomacy, and we've filled each of those in the first three months as well as going from five to four players in Warlords, but I don't want to have several open game queues (different games forming) at this point.

[Hawk_]

I would add, however, that there may be two ways of skinning this cat. On the sea power, a general change/overhaul makes sense... as Rick indicates, my own feeling after an initial bad experience was just never to mess with the seas at all.

On Chaos, you could have Chaos at a similar level that simply increases the damage an enemy takes upon retreat. And you could add Greater Chaos at a significantly higher level (perhaps lower by a level for chaos-themed Kingdoms) that functions as-is.

On the Invisibility tree of spells, you could simply cap it out at Division, like ambush. I've always kind of thought that it's a bit ridiculous for even mighty magic to be able to completely mask (including sounds, smells, etc.) a group of army or army-group size, anyway.

Of course, five GI or RD brigades would still be a punch in the mouth, but maybe you could tweak the levels for Invisible Brigade and Division for some of the strongest military Kingdoms as well...

Is part of the problem with Invisible the effectiveness of the slay wizard spell? You can kill a 5 with a 4 75% of the time and the failure has little downside.

Maybe a failed Slay spell could have a chance of death for the caster. Or the loss of a power level or something. Agents risk death with their failure.

Also re: Invisible: I wish there was a divination for ALL active groups in a given square. I want to know what is invisible in the square my group is located. There could be multiple kingdoms invisble.

Sometimes I am not as concerned with invisble groups in the entire region.

HeadHoncho,

Your notes are quite close to what I have in mind.

Hawk, very useful comments and also under consideration. Not sure the math on the kill wizard is correct, though.

Grybu, I was expecting some distribution close to that when planning it in March, but after 3 months, its about 50% Commander and up. The Scouts are generally the "Duelmasters to Alamaze" players and the new signees - maybe 11 in the last two games.

Ry Vor you were correct I needed to look up the slay % before I wrote my reply. My chance of success was overstated.