08-07-2023, 04:12 PM
I want to check the interest of something like this and things you would like me to consider if I move forward with it:
Poll: Spreadsheet Replacement You do not have permission to vote in this poll. |
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Keep the Mystery - No change, I like my advantage | 1 | 33.33% | |
YES PLEASE - What took so long! | 2 | 66.67% | |
Maybe - If it has this in it... | 0 | 0% | |
Total | 3 vote(s) | 100% |
* You voted for this item. | [Show Results] |
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08-07-2023, 04:12 PM
I want to check the interest of something like this and things you would like me to consider if I move forward with it:
08-07-2023, 05:54 PM
Yeah, I'm actually with the new guy Max on this and similar issues, running the math on all these things detracts from rather than enhances my enjoyment of the game. The game is too short to continuously fail on mundane tasks like grabbing an artifact, rebelling a PC, capturing a PC militarily, etc...
I would vote for accurate calculators for all these actions. If you want to add some mystery, you could incorporate a larger random factor. Therefore, for instance, if the calculator says maybe, but you really, really need to grab this or that, you can take a chance, or, come back when you are ready.
08-07-2023, 06:18 PM
(08-07-2023, 04:12 PM)Brekk Wrote: I want to check the interest of something like this and things you would like me to consider if I move forward with it: I think the depth of the math involved was a major factor in my taking a prolonged break last Oct. It was just too much of a brain burn for the few cells I have left?
08-07-2023, 06:28 PM
(08-07-2023, 05:54 PM)Jon Deaux Wrote: Yeah, I'm actually with the new guy Max on this and similar issues, running the math on all these things detracts from rather than enhances my enjoyment of the game. The game is too short to continuously fail on mundane tasks like grabbing an artifact, rebelling a PC, capturing a PC militarily, etc... I’ve used the present calculators and have failed at tasks. Needs to be improved with a simple chart.
08-07-2023, 07:18 PM
The calculator would definitely not be "Exact" by design but "accurate" with an variance.
08-07-2023, 07:53 PM
I voted to keep the mystery, as too much of the mystery of Alamaze, as a whole, is already divulged - and hence, gone.
Lots of math to do, already, and players have already grown addicted to a spreadsheet to do the calculations for them. Fantasy races should fight one another, not fractions and numbers.
08-07-2023, 08:20 PM
Maximus, so how then do people have any idea what is needed to be successful?
08-07-2023, 09:02 PM
Hi, just wanted to say that using Excel to play an online game these days could be discouraging for some new players. Alamaze really should have an online browser version of the player aid tools. As for the accuracy, all three areas (emissary, agent, encounters) have a random element associated with their calculations, so the tool can only provide estimates. Hope that helps...
08-08-2023, 02:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-08-2023, 02:21 PM by Maximus Dominus.)
(08-07-2023, 08:20 PM)Brekk Wrote: Maximus, so how then do people have any idea what is needed to be successful? Define successful. To me, successful isn't the same thing as winning, nor even playing to win. Rather, to me, successful is playing to have fun. Sure, winning a game of Alamaze might be a feather for someone's cap. But a feather is still only a feather. You tell me, Brekk, what is your vision for Alamaze? Getting a bunch of players to play Alamaze to win? And after they win, what then? If winning is what constitutes being successful, where Alamaze is concerned, then how long will the allure of winning translate into longevity of play? How many players do you think are going to play Alamaze, in order to win once with each kingdom in the game? In all of my browsing of the Alamaze forum over time, I've seen precious little evidence that the most hard core players of the game continue to play it, with winning as their driving motivation. How often do your current players check the Valhalla listings? Yeah, sure, it's nifty to give some statistics a glance, now and again, but in the grand scheme of things, how many new players do does the Valhalla feature bring in? How enthusiastic are the postings about Valhalla, which tracks game wins? How frequently are players posting about Valhalla this, or Valhalla that? At times, I use Hyborian War to make comparisons. Why? Because I love Hyborian War. I have described it on more than one occasion over time as my favorite game - out of all game types that I have played (video games, computer games, board games, even play by mail games). Yet, what is needed in order to be "successful" in Hyborian War? Well, the answer to that question just depends - it depends upon what you mean by successful. Where Hyborian War is concerned, players track all kinds of different data. Yet, a great bulk of what gets posted about Hyborian War, even all these years later, should really be taken with a grain of salt. To me, what makes playing Hyborian War successful is primarily a combination of two things - having fun and it being a memorable experience, when all is said and done. In my very first game of Hyborian War, in which I played the Kingdom of Asgard and finished in 5th place in HW-85, in terms of winning, it clearly wasn't a success for me. But that masterful act of betrayal by the Zamoran player, Alan Campbell from the State of Washington, that was memorable! I spoke to this guy on the telephone (land line type) after each turn. We were friendly to one another. And his stated reason for his act of betrayal? He wanted the game to be fun for me. By virtue of the fact that it was such a memorable thing, one of countless different things that transpired over the course of 47 turns that HW-85 ran, is what makes it successful to me. In all of the years that I have played Hyborian War, I've yet to meet the first player who knows everything about the game. Oh, sure, I'm sure that somewhere in the game's programming and code, specific sets of numbers are in play. Yet, there aren't any players, at all, who know what those numbers are. And that, I think, aids in preserving elements of mystery about the game - elements of mystery that transcend the passage of time. Players come and players go, but nobody is an expert on it all. With Alamaze, it isn't so much a case of the cat being out of the bag, as there are a bunch of cats already out of the bag. This, however, is the result of conscious choices and decisions by the game's designer. Rick McDowell wasn't designing Hyborian War. He created Alamaze, originally, from the ground up. With much of the numbers that determine outcomes known by all players who care to know, he sought precision in player decisions to effectuate desired outcomes. If someone masters all of the numbers that underlay Alamaze, then they are well ahead of the curve, already. To each their own. Some people just love crunching numbers. If Alamaze is en exercise in crunching numbers, what do you think that does to your potential for attracting new players? Back when Civilization first came out, I sure don't remember playing it countless hours, because I could crunch numbers. The reason why I like Hyborian War so much isn't because it's a perfect game, nor is it because I have accumulated more data than many other players. At the foundation of it all, I have played it for as long as I have played it because I just plain enjoy the game - and you know what? It's the meta-game aspect of Hyborian War that I love the most. Yet, scour the rulebook for Hyborian Way, and you won't find a single mention of the meta-game aspect. The meta-game deals with the players, and not the game, per se. The interaction and dynamics associated with the individual personalities, and the way that they think. The real challenge is the other players, not a bunch of cold, hard numbers. The range of emotions that players experience - and share. Sticking it to this guy. Paying back that other guy. Fighting against all perceived odds to mount a comeback from a dire situation. In Hyborian War, losing is one of the best experiences that a player can have (though not all of them realize that). In most games of Hyborian War that I have played, I haven't played to win - but to lose! And by that, I don't mean intentionally. Rather, what I mean is that I actively seek to invite my kingdom's destruction at the hands of other players. I poke. I prod. I goad. Always seeking more enemies. In doing so, I pull them out of the best laid plans of mice and men. How to "persuade," by hook or crook or turn of words for other players to forget whatever it was that they wanted to do, and to commit to my kingdom's destruction, instead. That, to me, is success, where Hyborian War is concerned. Alamaze, by comparison, is a far more complex game. It's also a far more tactical game than Hyborian War is. Oh, sure, they're both war games, each in their own right, but Alamaze is a game product that I've consumed far less than Alamaze. I first tried Alamaze back in the late 80s or early 90s (I don't recall which, exactly). At most, I only played a couple of turns of Alamaze, way back in the day. I have far less experience with Alamaze than with Hybroian War. Accordingly, trying to sift the wheat from the chaff, in a bid to glean the true beauty of Alamaze, is much further back on the path of progress, for me. My opinion, whatever it is on, is always an opinion of one. No one has to agree with it. That said, for me, Alamaze - the current Alamaze - is still a very recent invention. I consider it to be in a state of gaming infancy. Those 32 different kingdoms with distinct differences and some elements of uniqueness from one another hold a certain degree of appeal to me. There's magic in there, somewhere. And none of it has to do with me having access to various numbers that some players use to crunch and to gain advantage from. I remember when Lemmings first came out. I played it quite a bit. But rest assured, I am no number crunching Lemming, John. Success can be defined a near infinite number of different ways. Perhaps success, to some degree, means grasping what is special about Alamaze. In Hyborian War, even the famed Conan does not always succeed, in missions that he is sent on. At times, even Conan falls to the assassin's blade. Having a SUPERIOR level of avoidance does not mean that your kingdom will manage to succeed at not getting bound by peace treaties. Having a SUPERIOR level treasury does not mean that the full tribute that you pay to another kingdom will actually gain you that peace treaty that you so desperately seek. In Hyborian War, even when your kingdom's treasury runs dry, you can still continue to function as a player. Try playing Alamaze with no gold, and see how many orders your kingdom suddenly can't issue with success, anymore. If I'm playing an orc kingdom in some game, I want to attack the elf kingdoms, not because I have a 0.87382 advantage of some kind, but rather, because they're fucking elves! If I'm playing a "good" kingdom, I want to attack enemies that are evil because they are evil, not because I have assured myself that the numbers are in my favor. Crunching numbers is not an exercise in the suspension of disbelief. I don't want to focus upon the numbers. Numbers are math, not fantasy gaming. If players know the numbers, they tend to become less willing to take risks. They stalk their prey from a mathematician's perspective. The numbers tell all. They let you know the outcome of a battle before it ever takes place. So, why let a battle that you know that you're going to lose ever take place? Why risk your kingdom so? Intimate mastery of a game's numbers tend to persuade one against marching their army into the pits of Hell. If you know, if you absolutely know, the numbers like the back of your hand, how keen are you to invite the destruction of all that you have labored to build, for the purpose of winning?
08-08-2023, 02:30 PM
(08-07-2023, 09:02 PM)unclemike Wrote: Hi, just wanted to say that using Excel to play an online game these days could be discouraging for some new players. Alamaze really should have an online browser version of the player aid tools. As for the accuracy, all three areas (emissary, agent, encounters) have a random element associated with their calculations, so the tool can only provide estimates. Hope that helps... A most astute observation. Generally speaking, I tend to avoid spreadsheets like the plague. I suspect that I'm not along in this, among the vast legion of gamers out there. If Alamaze is to have told, then have tools. Just try to avoid, if at all possible, instilling a reliance upon spreadsheets to serve in the role of those tools. As an aside, I suspect that most people in the course of their daily life or their gaming life do not use spreadsheets. Hey, come on, fellas! Trade in those video games for some old fashioned spreadsheet fun! Yeah, right. |
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