(Retired) 3rd Cycle Valhalla

[Devildog]

I do think that both the Sacred Order and Black Dragons need something done for them. The Sacred Order just dropped or were eliminated on turn 5 of my game and they were being played by a very skilled player.

Perhaps they need the Dynasty trait? That might be enough to give them the early buffer they need.

Interesting possibility and not hard to do: dynasty with Sacred Order.  I still think players just are still adapting to 3rd Cycle.  The 2nd Cycle staples may not work here.  I don't know which skilled player, but as I posted elsewhere, the Sacred Order seems to be taken frequently by brand new players, against all advice, so I don't know if Valhalla can reflect that. 

I want our top players to take Sacred Order, or Black Dragons.

Newer players take the sacred order because it is always one of the last kingdoms taken. The experienced players have already taken kingdoms perceived as stronger in many cases. I am sure the black Dragons have been taken occasionally but I have not played in a game with them yet. That central position is a tough one, especially in a diplomacy game. I think the consensus is that the 2 positions available for amberland are not strong enough to compensate for their disadvantageous position on the map.

I did play in a game with frost Lord as the SA. He held the territory for much of the game but was no match for the Red Dragons. I also played with Lord Thanatos as the SA. He was taken out by turn 8 by the pirates and tyrant. They might have some input on the SA. I assume they qualify as experienced.

[Ry Vor]

I just go back to the refrain: these kingdoms play differently.  You are the Amazons or Sacred Order in the plains, you flank, it can be awesome.  No. you can't compare wizard power.   And again, the game is not designed for anonymous, so players that want that have to realize that.

[Lord Diamond]

I just go back to the refrain: these kingdoms play differently.  You are the Amazons or Sacred Order in the plains, you flank, it can be awesome.  No. you can't compare wizard power.   And again, the game is not designed for anonymous, so players that want that have to realize that.

Rick, you designed a wonderful game. We know the kingdoms play differently. None of that me that a few minor tweaks may not make it a lot more fun. Isn't 'more fun' a worthy goal? I think it is. Zone 5 needs a little help to make it a fun zone to play.

[Ry Vor]

Well the next release will have a new map, and one intention is no Amberland like region, although I still think a skilled BL or SA can do well, but it does take a lot of attention. 
It's in that challenge area.  I play some computer games where I take the underdog, it feels better doing well there than with the position that is expected to do well.

[unclemike]

I think The Wise One qualifies.

Please consider the Black Dragon as well. R5 is a harsh starting position.

Yeah. Sorry for dropping out of game 529 as the SA but as a staff member, if a player complains about something or requires me to investigate an issue as a programmer, I have to drop out if it gives me an advantage in the game (or if another feels they are at a disadvantage).

I was the last person to sign up for that game in order to get it going but it actually ended up being quite fun for me while it lasted. The reason was due to the turn 0 placement of my groups and due to sheer luck, all of my troops were close together along a border with another region. That allowed me to invade another region with three groups starting on turn 1 (awesome!!) and I used my emissaries/agents/4th group to explore Amberland.

With region 5's two cities, you don't need to conquer that may towns/villages in order to gain control of the region. So that helped with my decision along with the fact that there wasn't a TY in the game which sometimes starts with a capital in Amberland (having a TY around would have forced me to use my troops in region 5 rather than elsewhere).

Even though I was the last one to sign up for that game, Lady Luck actually made the game fun for me while it lasted until I had to drop out so don't take game 529 as a valid measure of the SA's worthiness in the game.

[Lord Diamond]

I think The Wise One qualifies.

Please consider the Black Dragon as well. R5 is a harsh starting position.

Yeah. Sorry for dropping out of game 529 as the SA but as a staff member, if a player complains about something or requires me to investigate an issue as a programmer, I have to drop out if it gives me an advantage in the game (or if another feels they are at a disadvantage).

I was the last person to sign up for that game in order to get it going but it actually ended up being quite fun for me while it lasted. The reason was due to the turn 0 placement of my groups and due to sheer luck, all of my troops were close together along a border with another region. That allowed me to invade another region with three groups starting on turn 1 (awesome!!) and I used my emissaries/agents/4th group to explore Amberland.

With region 5's two cities, you don't need to conquer that may towns/villages in order to gain control of the region. So that helped with my decision along with the fact that there wasn't a TY in the game which sometimes starts with a capital in Amberland (having a TY around would have forced me to use my troops in region 5 rather than elsewhere).

Even though I was the last one to sign up for that game, Lady Luck actually made the game fun for me while it lasted until I had to drop out so don't take game 529 as a valid measure of the SA's worthiness in the game.

I appreciate the explanation, Mike. I also appreciate your not taking advantage of your position, even inadvertently. I do wish that a standby player had been considered. I know that there was a second player willing to take over the Gnomes.

[unclemike]

Yep, I certainly considered that but a standby would have the same advantage in the game that my victim was complaining about so I didn't bother asking Rick to find a replacement. More on that later and how the new SQL version of the game that is coming up already has a fix to the problem. So I had to drop and I deleted my three order files (turns 1-3) so the position would be immediately eliminated from the game on turn 4 rather than linger for three more turns doing nothing with no chance of a standby.

[VballMichael]

The Gnomes were not a tenable position. It was not a random drop. He was either eliminated or reduced to one village. 
And UM is correct on his issue. His dropping should not reflect on him or on the Sacred Order. 
I am not sure he had to drop, but I respect his decision to take the high road.
The board is a bit unbalanced though with 3 kingdoms out quickly .

[Lord Diamond]

'The Halls of Valhalla' file on the first post of this thread has been updated with the results from game 516.

[Atuan]

Rick,

It comes down to this, do you want all kingdoms to be different yet equally strong? If thats the case you play the SA/BL. Having one of the best players play the position doesn't show it is as strong as its neighbor.

We mentioned the RD not being strong enough. After you playing it you were able to see what we were talking about.

Please note, I do know you have built a great game, you don't want the amazons to play like the warlocks. But I believe your intention is to have them as strong as the warlocks.

Atuan