Amazons

[admin]

Post your advice for playing this kingdom in this thread.

Thank you for contributing to the collective wisdom on how to best play this kingdom in Alamaze!

[Olorin]

Amazons

This is one of the least played Kingdoms, some 18 times over 84 games. Would probably be even less if Hammer did not like them for his first few games. I think it is overshadowed by the Sacred Order as the only other plains-based Kingdom. If one wanted a plains-based military Kingdom, one is far more likely to pick Sacred Order. Let us get into why that is.

First, Amazons are a Standard Magic, tier 4, Kingdom. Nothing special.

Their Terrain is Mastery of Plains, the single biggest terrain type in the game. This is wonderful. Unfortunately, this is also a feature of SA, so no real advantage for AM.

Their troops are Above Average. For context, G-G-VG-AA-AA-AA-AA-A. The problem lies in that the SA are better. Not in every category, but most.

So far, there is not much to separate the two and what little there is is in favor of SA. Let us move on to Traits.
There are a lot of traits for them, which is good.

Agents and Priestess traits:
Devout: Makes magic research a little harder. Drops agents by two level on their maximum, gives the fanatics them back. Also gives the priestess extra value.
Secretive: Bonus agent. Very important hidden capital.
Trackers: Gives the groups intrinsic recons, sparing agents from the task.

Military:
Archers: this is less of a bonus then it should be. Ranged attacks are nerfed compared to the values given to the rest of the categories, on an almost 3 to 1 ratio.
Healing: Nice boost to extending the combat abilities for the Kingdom brigades, and keeping leaders and wizards.
Military Tradition & Adventurers: Boost to leaders and Encounters.
Riders: Nice speed bonus, along with the Flank abilities. Also a boost to intercept.

Foreknowledge of 2 items.

This is a Kingdom based more on combat and religious aspects. The problem is that so is SA. They also have the Devout, Healing, Military Tradition, and Riders traits.

So the difference for Amazons is the Archers, Secretive, and Trackers. With Archers being nerfed (and SA for some reason having almost as good archers as AM), the only real advantage they have is Secretive. SA, on the other hand, has a number of other good traits.

Maybe the special rules will make a difference? Not really. Amazons get a free temple. So do SA. All the Amazon PC in the Plains get +20% food. The SA get the Rich trait. Flanking is available to both.

So the only standout Special for the Amazons is the Summer Attack. Which is only in half the regions, during summer. Which, bluntly, is just not as useful as the rest of the specials for the SA.

Which brings us to the Companions. Here, at least, the Amazons do better. They have Hill Giants and Mammoths. Wildlings, who give them a bonus in winter months in the north. Apes, who give them an advantage in Forests, though I am unsure why they would be here. And Zealots, which they share with SA.

So overall this is a nice Kingdom. The real problem is it is completely overshadowed by another Kingdom sharing the same niche. If the two were a bit more differentiated, with archery more a Amazon specialty with maybe Supremacy in Plains. Maybe some other traits or bonuses. There is just not a wide enough difference in magic and other traits currently to overcome the bonuses that SA has.

[davekuyk]

The AM is a tier up in magic from the SA; that is a large difference. The AM begins with a p-2; the SA does not.

Looking at some important spells:

AM gets Eagle Familiar at 2 - an impactful early spell. SA gets it at 4, by which time the spell has lost its punch.
AM gets Dispel Dome at 3; SA at 4.
AM gets Chaos at 3; SA at 4.
AM gets Dire Wolf Intrinsic (auto guard the group) at 4; SA at 6
AM gets Wall of Flame at 4; SA at 6
AM gets Summon Death at 8; SA at 9

[Olorin]

While they are a level higher in magic, this is not a magic-heavy Kingdom. If they were another tier up I might agree with you. The problem is they do not have enough of a superiority in magic to overcome the inferiority they have in other ways.

[JohnnyUtah]

I won't play SA anymore because their magic is so weak. I Agree that standard isn't a huge improvement, but it matters. Better companions, magic and a hidden capital make AM preferrable over SA in my opinion.

Plus this guy "Ozymandius" keeps playing AM and running people over in my games, so they must not be that bad

[Xerro]

The amazons are very similar to the sacred order. However dont count out the value of apes. They allow you huge bonuses in forest. This gives you a good bonus in 2 terains plains and forest. There are many regions to choose from that are dominated by those 2 terrains.

[Olorin]

I would put it this way:

If Ranged was adjusted more in line with the other categories and AM had Supremacy in Plains this would be much stronger. Apes and Archery would give them a strong affect in Forest, the Wildlings help balance the winter/summer. Without those, maybe another tier up in magic?

Part of the idea here is to spot both weaknesses and strengths, and find possibly adjustments to improve the Kingdoms ability to standout in some way. Not necessarily be better than any other, just be more or less equal so playing ability makes more of a difference.

I am happy these analysis are sparking discussion, though.

[Lord Garth]

Amazons

This is one of the least played Kingdoms, some 18 times over 84 games.  Would probably be even less if Hammer did not like them for his first few games.  I think it is overshadowed by the Sacred Order as the only other plains-based Kingdom.  If one wanted a plains-based military Kingdom, one is far more likely to pick Sacred Order.  Let us get into why that is.

First, Amazons are a Standard Magic, tier 4, Kingdom.  Nothing special.

Their Terrain is Mastery of Plains, the single biggest terrain type in the game.  This is wonderful.  Unfortunately, this is also a feature of SA, so no real advantage for AM.

Their troops are Above Average. For context, G-G-VG-AA-AA-AA-AA-A.  The problem lies in that the SA are better.  Not in every category, but most.

So far, there is not much to separate the two and what little there is is in favor of SA.  Let us move on to Traits.
There are a lot of traits for them, which is good.

Agents and Priestess traits:
Devout: Makes magic research a little harder. Drops agents by two level on their maximum, gives the fanatics them back. Also gives the priestess extra value.
Secretive: Bonus agent.  Very important hidden capital.
Trackers: Gives the groups intrinsic recons, sparing agents from the task.

Military:
Archers: this is less of a bonus then it should be.  Ranged attacks are nerfed compared to the values given to the rest of the categories, on an almost 3 to 1 ratio.
Healing: Nice boost to extending the combat abilities for the Kingdom brigades, and keeping leaders and wizards.
Military Tradition & Adventurers: Boost to leaders and Encounters.
Riders: Nice speed bonus, along with the Flank abilities.  Also a boost to intercept.

Foreknowledge of 2 items.

This is a Kingdom based more on combat and religious aspects.  The problem is that so is SA.  They also have the Devout, Healing, Military Tradition, and Riders traits.

So the difference for Amazons is the Archers, Secretive, and Trackers.  With Archers being nerfed (and SA for some reason having almost as good archers as AM), the only real advantage they have is Secretive.  SA, on the other hand, has a number of other good traits.

Maybe the special rules will make a difference?  Not really.  Amazons get a free temple.  So do SA.  All the Amazon PC in the Plains get +20% food.  The SA get the Rich trait.  Flanking is available to both.

So the only standout Special for the Amazons is the Summer Attack.  Which is only in half the regions, during summer.  Which, bluntly, is just not as useful as the rest of the specials for the SA.

Which brings us to the Companions.  Here, at least, the Amazons do better.  They have Hill Giants and Mammoths.  Wildlings, who give them a bonus in winter months in the north.  Apes, who give them an advantage in Forests, though I am unsure why they would be here.  And Zealots, which they share with SA.

So overall this is a nice Kingdom.  The real problem is it is completely overshadowed by another Kingdom sharing the same niche.  If the two were a bit more differentiated, with archery more a Amazon specialty with maybe Supremacy in Plains.  Maybe some other traits or bonuses.  There is just not a wide enough difference in magic and other traits currently to overcome the bonuses that SA has.

Orlin,

To the best of my knowledge, Archery was nerfed by 10%, not 3-1 ratio. Still. your premise is accurate.


Lord Garth
2022-2025 2x Reigning Runner Up Alamaze Champion
Possibly the only man alive to win with the Atlanteans

[Olorin]

I am not gainsaying you on that they were fixed by 10%. When I was running numbers trying to figure out the stats for Kingdom troops I realized that the top end for LR was about 1/3rd of the top range for Combat or Charge. I do find it interesting that they thought Ranged was too strong when it had to be under-strength by two to one at the time.

[Xerro]

I really like the idea of making the amazons and sacred order more individualized. I think the solution is in changes to the sacred order and not so much on the amazon side. The sacred order is the champion of good that thrives on fighting evil. Evil is a defined trait now and having a kingdom specialized in fighting this scourge could be fun. They could get bonuses against evil kingdoms. They could get rewards for fighting evil and winning. Much like the lycans success in battle could generate paladin recruits but only from victorys against evil kingdoms. Or make the rewards like the pirates get for sea battles. But I think the lycan option would be more appealing. I know there are limits to what can be done but it can't hurt to make educated wishs.