Brigade comparisons

[Olorin]

Were these troop strength changes implemented?

Thanks.;

Not yet.  We are going over costs and want to implement them all at one time.

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I have a comment/complaint.  I was playing the fairies, had 7 fairies' brigades, 1 chimeras, 20 sprites, 20 pixies, 5 gargoyles, 5 manticores, 3 - 5th level wizards, decent leaders (marshal or warlord , can remember).  Group was 153000.  Fought a full red dragon army 4 red dragons, 1 phoenix, 5 wyverns, 10 bats.  Probably 75-80 thousand.  His leadership was about mine, and his wizards were slightly worse.  We fight, full attack from him, full defensive for me.  He losses 17 percent and i loose everything.  Why give strengths that don't match up to how they fight at all.  I probably should have destroyed him, I would have been ok with both of us loosing 80000 in strength.  But to be destroyed like that kind of ticked me off. I don't understand the battle system here at all and have been severely punished in games by it once the game goes to turn 18 plus.

Just as a quick example, I do not know what the actual numbers are.

You inflict 153,000 divided by his defense of probably 3 or 4, say 4.  So you inflict 38,250. 

You take 80,000 divided by your defense.  Pixies are one of the worst defenses in the game, sprites and fairies are almost as bad.  if your defense is 1.5, you take 53,300.

You cannot just take your attack strength alone, you have to include your defense rating as well.  The good news is nobody has a rating below 1, and only Troglodytes are that low.  Everybody else has a number that divides at least a little bit off the total attack.  I am not going to tell you the actual numbers but if you go back and look at the actual defense and consider relative ratings you should get an overall feel for how good their defense is against yours.

[Frostking]

Were these troop strength changes implemented?

Thanks.;

Not yet.  We are going over costs and want to implement them all at one time.

---

I have a comment/complaint.  I was playing the fairies, had 7 fairies' brigades, 1 chimeras, 20 sprites, 20 pixies, 5 gargoyles, 5 manticores, 3 - 5th level wizards, decent leaders (marshal or warlord , can remember).  Group was 153000.  Fought a full red dragon army 4 red dragons, 1 phoenix, 5 wyverns, 10 bats.  Probably 75-80 thousand.  His leadership was about mine, and his wizards were slightly worse.  We fight, full attack from him, full defensive for me.  He losses 17 percent and i loose everything.  Why give strengths that don't match up to how they fight at all.  I probably should have destroyed him, I would have been ok with both of us loosing 80000 in strength.  But to be destroyed like that kind of ticked me off. I don't understand the battle system here at all and have been severely punished in games by it once the game goes to turn 18 plus.

Just as a quick example, I do not know what the actual numbers are.

You inflict 153,000 divided by his defense of probably 3 or 4, say 4.  So you inflict 38,250. 

You take 80,000 divided by your defense.  Pixies are one of the worst defenses in the game, sprites and fairies are almost as bad.  if your defense is 1.5, you take 53,300.

You cannot just take your attack strength alone, you have to include your defense rating as well.  The good news is nobody has a rating below 1, and only Troglodytes are that low.  Everybody else has a number that divides at least a little bit off the total attack.  I am not going to tell you the actual numbers but if you go back and look at the actual defense and consider relative ratings you should get an overall feel for how good their defense is against yours.

Still doesn't add up even a bit.  I loose 53000 points, strength whatever, which leaves me with 100000?  He loses 38000 which knocks him to half strength.    So i am at 60 percent or so to his 50 percent.  that is not close to what happened though.

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Still doesn't add up even a bit. I loose 53000 points, strength whatever, which leaves me with 100000? He loses 38000 which knocks him to half strength. So i am at 60 percent or so to his 50 percent. that is not close to what happened though.

sorry, i just replied kind of funny so i put it again here.

[uncledarkseid]

Were these troop strength changes implemented?

Thanks.;

Not yet.  We are going over costs and want to implement them all at one time.

---

I have a comment/complaint.  I was playing the fairies, had 7 fairies' brigades, 1 chimeras, 20 sprites, 20 pixies, 5 gargoyles, 5 manticores, 3 - 5th level wizards, decent leaders (marshal or warlord , can remember).  Group was 153000.  Fought a full red dragon army 4 red dragons, 1 phoenix, 5 wyverns, 10 bats.  Probably 75-80 thousand.  His leadership was about mine, and his wizards were slightly worse.  We fight, full attack from him, full defensive for me.  He losses 17 percent and i loose everything.  Why give strengths that don't match up to how they fight at all.  I probably should have destroyed him, I would have been ok with both of us loosing 80000 in strength.  But to be destroyed like that kind of ticked me off. I don't understand the battle system here at all and have been severely punished in games by it once the game goes to turn 18 plus.

Just as a quick example, I do not know what the actual numbers are.

You inflict 153,000 divided by his defense of probably 3 or 4, say 4.  So you inflict 38,250. 

You take 80,000 divided by your defense.  Pixies are one of the worst defenses in the game, sprites and fairies are almost as bad.  if your defense is 1.5, you take 53,300.

You cannot just take your attack strength alone, you have to include your defense rating as well.  The good news is nobody has a rating below 1, and only Troglodytes are that low.  Everybody else has a number that divides at least a little bit off the total attack.  I am not going to tell you the actual numbers but if you go back and look at the actual defense and consider relative ratings you should get an overall feel for how good their defense is against yours.

Still doesn't add up even a bit.  I loose 53000 points, strength whatever, which leaves me with 100000?  He loses 38000 which knocks him to half strength.    So i am at 60 percent or so to his 50 percent.  that is not close to what happened though.

---

Still doesn't add up even a bit.  I loose 53000 points, strength whatever, which leaves me with 100000?  He loses 38000 which knocks him to half strength.    So i am at 60 percent or so to his 50 percent.  that is not close to what happened though.

sorry, i just replied kind of funny so i put it again here.

Depends on other factors as well
Morale, was attack and defense upgraded, which spells were cast, artifacts, order of operations concerning long range, short range, etc.  
remember to pay attention to the troop chart, the Reds are ultimate in the charge phase, especially in the plains.  It would be interesting to see the battle report printed here

[Frostking]

I asked Brekk to look at it and his comment was Red dragons have a great defense and fairies don't. Again im ok loosing, just don't think i can really judge how a battle will go. should i go for it, should i run. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It has happened several time to me now. It's pretty frustrating.

[JohnnyUtah]

Never forgot the Alamaze WTF factor. In one hand the game will offer complex detailed formulas with leaders, spells, terrain, artifacts and traits, but in the other hand is a little note that says "not all elements of gameplay work, troop values and ratings provided are wrong, and the rulebook is wrong. Also, probabilities given for event outcomes are wrong. Good Luck!"

Many thanks to the veterans that have shared decades of tribal knowledge to make the game playable for new players. I love this game, but there are many times when I hate it and swear never to play again...and then I work on another turn.

[davekuyk]

An online battle calculator would be great - input the variables and then see a possible outcome.

[Brekk]

OK thought I’d jump in here again.
I’ll give you a little more background than Olorin, not because he doesn’t know better than me (he definitely does!) but because I don’t want this to turn into strictly a numbers game. Players need to understand what’s going on and still have fun with it.
Olorin and I have rebalanced all the kingdoms on a mathematical scale, comparing every troop type relative to the phases of combat. Think of it from a D&D perspective, each troop effectively has “Hit Points”, "Defence (AC)", and “Attack Value.”
To reach this balance, combat has been broken into a series of phases, where all damage for that phase is applied at the end of that phase. These phases (in order) are roughly as follows: I’ll double-check when I’m home, but this gives you the idea:

Combat Flow
Pre-Battle:
This is where modifiers like artifacts, morale, leaders, advanced weaponry, and most importantly, final defense value are computed. All of these feed into attack bonuses, defense adjustments, and the effective “HP” of your army.
One huge thing to note, defense is averaged across all troops. So, for example, having 3 Red Dragons and 10 Sprites drastically reduces the Dragons’ overall defense, meaning your chance to retreat goes way up because you’re taking more damage, and in the end, your losses get applied across all troops, giving the appearance of taking far heavier damage overall. So if you went from a 15k attack with just Dragons to a 35k attack by adding in Faeries, you could actually be worse off.
Then the battle begins, and it follows this order (with retreat checks between phases, and damage carrying forward to reach retreat levels, which is critical):

Archer Phase (Stage 1, Long Range)
Archer Phase (Stage 2, Short Range)
Magic Phase (Stage 1)
Artifact Weapon Phase
Cavalry Phase (Stage 1, Charge)
Cavalry Phase (Stage 2)
Magic Phase (Stage 2)
Infantry Phase (Stage 1)
Infantry Phase (Stage 2)
Combined Phase (Stage 3)

After that come the final checks, deaths, retreats, and battle conclusion.

How This Affects Gameplay
Because damage carries over between phases, armies with high defense maintain their hitting power longer. They keep dishing out damage while taking fewer losses. You’ll notice this especially when facing elite or heavily armored troops.
We also found that many stats were wrong or inconsistent between what was written and what actually happened in the code. Once we finalize implementation, those values will match correctly.
One big takeaway, kingdoms that had been ranked high in certain phases (like archery) were sometimes doing far less real damage than others with the same “Awesome” rating. For instance, Elves might have looked strong in archery on paper, but their actual output was only 30 to 40 percent of the damage of a kingdom rated “Awesome” in the Charge phase.
So we went back, re-evaluated every kingdom, and redefined their combat flavor across every phase. Now, if you face Elves, expect them to rain hell in the archery stages!

All this to say, we’re about 80 percent done with the rebalance. A lot of factors are being considered, and I think this will add real flavor to each kingdom while making troop selection and army composition far more meaningful.
I hope this helps the newer players understand where we’re heading.

John/Brek

[Alzreborn]

Thank you good discussion.

[Strongwill]

John how will a P6 shield effect individual troop defensive value, will each lvl of power increase exponentially the defensive rating of said brigade type? Like for example SK very poor troop type would increase defensive rating to maybe average to good depending on the power lvl of wizard?

[Frostking]

I am very good with the whole awesome, great, fantastic thing. My complaint is the reverse, the numbers. I keep expecting to do better than i am with troops and large armies, then getting my ass kicked. It's kind of weird