Brigade comparisons

[JohnnyUtah]

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Iron Golem [1]:
Ultimate fighting machine!  Just rolls right over you and breathes! So, no LR or SR. You just do not want it anywhere near you. One of the things I notice is a lot of the ranged attacks are accurate even when the others are not.  I figure when he adjusted the ranged that he reworked a lot of them.  This is another where a very good Brigade got pushed up.

Our thoughts was the LR and SR were not likely, it seemed like the extras would be due to the breath but that was covered under the specials and were not required.  Pulling those, we added to the areas it was not already Ultimate.  And then let you know it was severely understated in ratings.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Absent
SR:Excellent, Excellent --- Absent
CH:Ultimate, Renowned --- Awesome
M1:Good, Awesome --- Ultimate
M2:Good, Ultimate --- Ultimate
CO:Excellent, Ultimate --- Ultimate
DE:Superior, Ultimate --- Ultimate
ST:Renowned, Ultimate --- Ultimate

I always found their defense suspect taking twice or more percent damage than other brigades I had (can't remember the kingdom- probably a wizard). Maybe something else was doing that, as the actual DE was ultimate. Curious.

Yes, my IG's always seem to take 21.3% damage.

[Pine Needle]

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Iron Golem [1]:
Ultimate fighting machine!  Just rolls right over you and breathes! So, no LR or SR. You just do not want it anywhere near you. One of the things I notice is a lot of the ranged attacks are accurate even when the others are not.  I figure when he adjusted the ranged that he reworked a lot of them.  This is another where a very good Brigade got pushed up.

Our thoughts was the LR and SR were not likely, it seemed like the extras would be due to the breath but that was covered under the specials and were not required.  Pulling those, we added to the areas it was not already Ultimate.  And then let you know it was severely understated in ratings.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Absent
SR:Excellent, Excellent --- Absent
CH:Ultimate, Renowned --- Awesome
M1:Good, Awesome --- Ultimate
M2:Good, Ultimate --- Ultimate
CO:Excellent, Ultimate --- Ultimate
DE:Superior, Ultimate --- Ultimate
ST:Renowned, Ultimate --- Ultimate

I always found their defense suspect taking twice or more percent damage than other brigades I had (can't remember the kingdom- probably a wizard). Maybe something else was doing that, as the actual DE was ultimate. Curious.

Yes, my IG's always seem to take 21.3% damage.

That number rings a bell to me, too. Maybe a bug (which is unfixable right now.)

[Olorin]

Thanks to all the folks who commented here and on Brekk's Troop Changes threads. We just did a review and will post results as soon as I update the ratings. The reason it will take a bit is I have to re-calibrate average and all other brigades ratings relative to that for each Rating. So a mere 800-900 numbers or so.

[Lord Garth]

Orlin,


Thanks for doing all that work posting each brigade type.  And thanks for all the work you are doing with Brek.

I read the whole thread and had the following thoughts:

1) It should probably be clear to most what the ratings mean.  Ultimate, for example, at 400% of Average does not mean its 4 times as strong as Average.  

2) With all the new brigade types,  Recruitables have clearly slid in value.  And they were already barely worth it as the game is currently constituted.  Consider, when Kingdom Named brigs are not enough players will usually turn to companions, and then to summonables, and only then to the recruits.  Recruiting brigs only give you 2 a turn per pop compares to 7 companions, are often expensive, damage your pc giving long term expense, and usually arrive Green meaning you must wait a turn and issue yet another order and spend more recourses just to get them to Regular.   

Sometimes you do it for the special but some recruitable troops don't even have that. Vikings and Paladins/Knights of Styx (which are very expensive) are examples.  Yes, they have no cap but unless you have Devout or Industrious to replenish your PC tax base it can be hard to recruit much of them.   If you want recruitables to be a desirable factor in the game without upsetting the applecart too much some adjustment must be made.  Perhaps allowing them to be trained up to Veteran in certain circumstances.  Otherwise they will be a 4th rate option which can be fine if that's the intention.

3) There was debate that the Ancient Ones should be buffed.  I agree that they were meant to be a strong brig type but with few reinforcements.   I would start with raising DE.

4) Necromancer is another that needs a buff.  I see them as the newer version of the old Witch King.  Back when there was only 3 wizard kingdoms the WK had by far the best troops but the wizards cost 1000 extra per level.  Plus I think their K.N. brigades were expensive.  Today the Necromancer still costs more than other wizard kingdoms (thanks to Order) but the troops stink.  Thankfully their brigs are cheap to maintain now.  I'd buff their brigs but I wouldn't give it much in the way of reinforcements.  Let it recruit hoards of undead to supplement its armies.

5) Centaurs.  Lower LR raise CH.

6) Chameleons.  Switch LR with SR

7) Lycans.  Seem a bit overly tough.  Would probably lower DE or ST.  Or both.

9) Orcs.  SR down to Above Average and put CH to Average.   Possibly lower LR and put that on ST.

10) Ogres.  I agree.  Lower LR.  Raise M1.

11) Phantasms.  I always considered them Average across the board.  Good SR seems weird.

12) Ranger.  Another brigade that I always imagined to be elite and just below the Big Guys like SA, GI and RD.  You buff them which is great but lower their ST.  This may be an issue for a kingdom already unable to take a Legendary.  Also, if you want to frontload so much of their might in ranged you may want to give them Archers trait.

13) Scorpions.  I'm guessing they are Giant Scorpions but Renowned in both Melee?  I would lower.

14) Tyrant.  This brigade is worse than I thought.  May need an overhaul.

15) Unicorns are now capped at 7 and Griffons are at 10.  The Free Traders are getting a lot of love here.  This is supposed to be an economic powerhouse with poor military.   But with all the companion choices and unique special companions the FT is approaching a very formidable military kingdom.  There are other kingdoms out there that don't have near the amount of Traits or Special Abilities of the FT and still have less recruiting options.  I would consider making the "special recruits' available to some other needy kingdoms and/or cutting other companions from the FT.

16) Westmen, I agree and would raise DE to Above Average.

17) Warg Riders.  I would give them a bit more CH.

18)  Question.   Is Stormgate Guard rating given at it's raw amounts or the inflated Veteran numbers?

19) Adjusting 30+ kingdom's Military Might can't be easy.  Between kingdom brig values, reinforcement schedules, companion options, their values and their recruit caps as well as recruiting and maintenance costs, well, let's say I don't envy you.  However there may be some options that might help (or possibly complicate) matters.   

Consider adjusting Reinforcement Schedules to provide a Veteran Brigade instead of a Regular at, say, Turn 20.  (Call it a brig returning from sea or the frontier or whatever)  Or perhaps granting an extra General with the reinforcements. This is a great to way to supplement group strength without extra cost and could be a good way to aid some military kingdoms then tend to slip around that point in the game.  


Anyway, these were my thoughts on reading your posts.  I hope they were helpful.  Thanks again for all the work.


Lord Garth
Once the widely esteemed Runner up of all Alamaze.  Now, just like the rest of you.  sigh.

[Lord Garth]

Orlin,

I know you guys have probably put most of the troops together by now. And somebody mentioned adjusting recruiting and maintenance costs to reflect any changes. But it also occurred to me that you may also want to adjust requirements as well. Leadership requirements have already been dropped, but some brigades require x amount of troops or Veteran brigades or Elite or whatever. For instance, Trolls require Veteran which is understandable but so does Great Bats which are terrible. Perhaps this sort of thing should be adjusted as well.

I also think troops without 'Specials' such as Vikings, Paladins, Uak Hai, etc should maybe be a little better or cheaper or have lower requirements than some that don't.

[Strongwill]

Orlin,

I know you guys have probably put most of the troops together by now. And somebody mentioned adjusting recruiting and maintenance costs to reflect any changes. But it also occurred to me that you may also want to adjust requirements as well. Leadership requirements have already been dropped, but some brigades require x amount of troops or Veteran brigades or Elite or whatever. For instance, Trolls require Veteran which is understandable but so does Great Bats which are terrible. Perhaps this sort of thing should be adjusted as well.

I also think troops without 'Specials' such as Vikings, Paladins, Uak Hai, etc should maybe be a little better or cheaper or have lower requirements than some that don't.

Agree with this

[Olorin]

Sorry, been dealing with a bunch of RL issues, so have not really been on here as much as I should. Will try to address all Lord Garth's points.
1) One of the problems with this style of ratings is everytime you shift one brigade it can have an affect on both other brigade ratings but on the average all of them are based on. Even within a rating group. For example, if you move a brigade from the low end of Average to Above Average you may cause the median to shift up. In doing so the new average may include the rating you just moved the first Brigade to, dropping it back into Average.

2)Recruitables are a problem. I agree with you there. We are trying to get them to be a better choice, and I would love to get them to be able to be trained to Veteran. Say, with two training sessions from Regular. But that is a coding problem.
In the meantime, we are trying to make them more specialist troops so you may be recruiting to fill a hole in your capabilities. And the specialties may also have an affect on strategy as you need a type of troop only raised in certain areas. That is the idea anyway.

3) Working on it. I see them as a kind of late Roman Republic style with the Consuls.

4) This one is likely to be corrected with Spells. As a tier 1 magic, Necromancers should have the full Monster Summon set but they do not right now. I really think they should as most living things would dislike all the undead in the armies. So they rely on summoned more.

5,6,7,9,10,11) Working on these. See how they re-balance.
8) disappeared.

12) Keep in mind that ranged attacks still affect PCs, so they have improved vs PC even without much growth in Storm.

13) From the picture they used to show them I assumed Giant Scorpions. And Renowned pretty well fits. The claws are strong, and the tail hit is hard enough to kill most things their own size, even without the venom.

14)Pretty much. Right now I am thinking of them as a higher strength Fairy Folk. So more Reinforcements maybe?

15) Companions are getting an overhaul in general. So, yeah, some of those are going to change. Free Traders have one of the worst military in the game, so they HAVE to rely on companions and recruits. And as you pointed out, recruits are a pretty poor option as they stand.
We may have to adjust costs so as to make the economics a bit more important. We have noticed that the 'economic' Kingdoms are getting short shrift, so making costs and trade a bit more important may help that.

16,17) Working on it.

18) Raw numbers. We can only work on those, as those are then multiplied by the program. So that basis is what I posted with.

19) I like the idea! Will have to ask Brekk if it is possible without coding. Would certainly improve options for the Reinforcement schedule.

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Orlin,

I know you guys have probably put most of the troops together by now. And somebody mentioned adjusting recruiting and maintenance costs to reflect any changes. But it also occurred to me that you may also want to adjust requirements as well. Leadership requirements have already been dropped, but some brigades require x amount of troops or Veteran brigades or Elite or whatever. For instance, Trolls require Veteran which is understandable but so does Great Bats which are terrible. Perhaps this sort of thing should be adjusted as well.

I also think troops without 'Specials' such as Vikings, Paladins, Uak Hai, etc should maybe be a little better or cheaper or have lower requirements than some that don't.

Agree with this

We are going to put out another list soon for you guys to go over for the ratings. And then we are going over all the various costs, requirements, Reinforcements, and companion lists. And anything else we can work on without re-coding so as to balance it as much as possible.

One of the problems we need to overcome is Brekk does not have a test engine for play-testing. Any changes he makes goes to every game, instantly. So we are proceeding slowly, and trying to catch all the mistakes BEFORE inflicting them on you folk. So redundantly posting about what we are looking at and asking for comments is the best way forwards we have. The more eyes to spot any mistakes, the better. We are still probably going to have some that slip through regardless, but they should be fewer and more minor. Hopefully.

[davekuyk]

A note about recruiting from PCs:

I don't actually see this as a poor choice. Groups spend a lot of time at PCs, and being able to pick up troops there is a nice perk. Picking up companions means a group goes a bit out of the way to do, and I think that is fine. Picking up potentially seven brigades from an empty square vs picking up two from a PC, where you can do all the usual PC things, is a good trade-off IMHO. In the mid and late game, it is a significant opportunity loss to take your troops out of combat to pick up troops.

That is one reason why skeletons are attractive. They are weak troops, yes, but they are the easiest troops to summon.

[Xerro]

Recruitable troops do need a little tweaking when compared with companions. You get only 2 and it lowers the production of the PC permanently. I believe those 2 points counter balance with the advantage of having your troops at a PC for both attacking and defensive purposes. The other 2 costs are where I believe some adjustments are due. They come in as green. This is big. I have long thought companions should come in as green also. I realize that probably won't happen.
Is it possible to have them come in as regular and remove the training order altogether? The other cost is the actual recruiting and maintenance cost of these troops. Many have pointed out they are high. I imagine if their other values can be tweaked that these can be also? Maybe its already on your ridiculously long to do list?

[davekuyk]

Recruiting troops from pc no longer reduces production. It did at one point. Census is still reduced.