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**HeadHoncho** · 08-09-2013, 06:12 PM

Kevin, I'm curious, you played UN to a strong finish in a previous game. In your negotiations in that game, did you use a "no holds barred" style, or an "honor among thieves" style?

(I think either style could potentially work, but I have my own feelings about which one might be more effective, especially in a potentially long game. Or games.)

**kevindusi** · 08-09-2013, 06:17 PM

Mostly I hid behind RD while he attacked GN and picked off GN guys, then I hid behind a variety of others while they attacked DA and picked off DA guys. At the end, I was hiding behind just about everyone I could find and kidnapping targets for them. It's amazing how fast status points accumulate with prisoners.

The UN are a weak position early on that would, in my opinion, benefit from holding up any bargains made so as not to make themselves a target. Had the RD not been willing to be the hammer on GN in my UN game, I would have adopted a "take it and like it" mentality with what GN was offering me in 7. They need time to consolidate and develop their political corps and agents.

To answer your question, I tried (successfully, I believe) to be an honorable Underworld.

Mokkaron · 08-09-2013, 06:47 PM

Hello folks.
Role-playing aside and not as experienced as many of you, let me have my chance to speak about the allegations made against me. When I initiated diplomacy, what I was aiming for was cooperation and possibly a PC swap. My offers were dismissed, and what I got was basically [not his words], "Here is where I am flying, and I will take all that falls in my path!" (which was directly where my starting PCs were) So, yes, we forged a deal where he would not take from a limited (trees and water) area, keeping me in the early game instead of losing assets to the RD in exchange for my not expanding into areas he was going to be flying around in or targeting him with my fledgling agents. We were both aware of the other's alliances, and despite routine assurances to the RD that I supported my alliance with another kingdom and his claim to the region, attempts to reach a diplomatic settlement where we respected each others' alliances never came about. When I asked about his intentions in the region, he didn't share because he didn't trust me and knew I was in a tight alliance.

I sent an email explaining that i would be breaking our agreement (or NAP to the more experienced crowd) and that I would not send emissaries with the intent to take his population centers this turn. I did not say that I wouldn't try to stop you from taking my allies' territory that I had told you multiple times that I recognized as his! There was no lie. Of course I kidnapped!

One of the great things about this game is the ability to roleplay, which, frankly, I didn't do. The UN should have backstabbed unscrupulously and lied through their teeth. I did the honorable thing by sticking to an alliance against a very strong opponent and ending a simple agreement that prevented me from losing my starting assets. Having never played against the RD before, I've been told that they can take whatever they want in the early game. So, yeah, you bet I wanted stick around a while. However, I notified the RD ahead of time so he could prepare - an honorable thing. He prepared a ward and I got caught. It happens. I did not lie.

How are you supposed to end agreements with players in this game? If it doesn't work out, do you just let it ride and pout? When they attack your allies, do you tell them, "Hey, I support my allies and their right to the region you are burning down. Let's cut a deal and move somewhere else. Whaddaya say, chum?" - and after no assurances, counter-offers, or sharing of plans just shrug it off and watch your allies burn?

...and THEN to come on a bulletin board and post game information and bad-mouth someone while the game is still in progress?? Is that how the game is played nowadays?

Can't we just play a game and role-play a little bit? I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and ended an agreement. You can boast about getting one of my agents. That's appropriate. Posting it online and poo-pooing someone's name while the game is in progress is much less honorable than anything I did.

Mokkaron · 08-09-2013, 06:54 PM

That being said, Razorclaw is a pretty cool dragon when you get to know him. I still find it strange that he likes the taste of gnomes. I guess they are like Tic-Tacs, small and brightly-colored.

**j2klbs** · 08-09-2013, 07:10 PM

Hey Mokkaron - The post re: UN treachery done by me was "in character" and thus signed by "Razorclaw". I'm not intending anything I said to affect you as a player or person, just your in-game character. :-) I think you did an admirable job roleplaying - I enjoyed our interchanges. While it is clear top me that you went against the intent of the NAP, we also didn't state the terms to end the NAP (usually an agreed upon turn number or one turn advance notice). I think sending agents after me within that grace period was a bit devious and certainly against the spirit of your assurances (and thus deceptive). It's fine though to play the UN as being duplicitous. It is actually somewhat fitting (although assassins could equally be role-played as living by a strict code). I view these forums as a way for my character to get the word out at large to the other "characters" in game. You are a cool guy and I certainly do not mean to cast any aspersions to you as a player, just to your in-game personal, "Mok of the Underworld".

Cheers!
~Jason

Mokkaron · 08-09-2013, 07:36 PM

Thanks Jason,
This is a fun game, no doubt. I'm not necessarily a fan of having a bulletin board where folks can spill in-game details to the remainder of the players while the game is going on. I don't think red dragons used the internet very much in AD&D, but when I saw a bit of character assassination going on (that my agents had NOTHING to do with), I saw red.

However, the social media aspect of this bulletin board is such that allegations of dishonorable conduct can have ramifications across multiple games, not just this one. I use my persona on this board and it is the same in-game (although the picture is not really of me); so when a comment is made against me about something in-game that we happen to disagree upon, it's a bit disconcerting that it may now affect relations in other games against Mok. I guess it's all perspective. I plan on sticking around on the board and in game for a while (despite losing only one agent out of a virtual army of knife-wielding killing machines).

Ugh. Game on!
The Honorable and Trustworthy Representative of the Underworld Assassins and Thieves' Guild
-Mok

Telrandir · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2013, 07:50 PM by Telrandir.)

(08-09-2013, 07:36 PM)Mokkaron Wrote: Ugh. Game on!
The Honorable and Trustworthy Representative of the Underworld Assassins and Thieves' Guild
-Mok

OOC, Mok - I'm just trying to stay in 'roleplay' mode for the most part, with these posts and in most of my emails. And I certainly will not carry over anything between in games - I'm playing to enjoy the story, explore and learn!!! [first time playing]

I appreciate the sentiment you've expressed, as it reflects feelings I've had when learning games in the past. Now, I suppose, I'm a penny wiser - its all part of the journey. You strike me as a fun guy - I like the spirited underworld twist you've added to your talking points.

Game on - and good luck!!!

Smile

-John

Mokkaron · 08-09-2013, 08:20 PM

OOC: Self-awareness... I just used the word "COOKIE" to get my dog to come back in the house (it's one of the only words he knows), but I gave him a healthy carrot instead! Holy cow...maybe I AM a lying schemer in real life!?

Dang.

(But now i feel guilty, so he will get a real cookie later)

Real life: Marc
Persona: Mok
(Both are the same if you are a Bostonian)

Telrandir · 08-09-2013, 08:35 PM

OOC - Cheers for Boston! :-) Californian here, but with roots [and born] around Concord.

Good to meet ya Mok. Telrandir - strangely - and John are equally my name, strangely enough. Telrandir, however, just doesn't suit a Dwarven King.

Back to the game!

**HeadHoncho** · 08-09-2013, 09:29 PM

First, on a player level, I'm glad this was all resolved and that there are no hard feelings.

Regarding the "meta" procedural point below, however, I have some strong feelings that I feel compelled to share, even though I have no beef with any of the players (or Kingdoms) involved.

(08-09-2013, 07:36 PM)Mokkaron Wrote: However, the social media aspect of this bulletin board is such that allegations of dishonorable conduct can have ramifications across multiple games, not just this one. I use my persona on this board and it is the same in-game (although the picture is not really of me); so when a comment is made against me about something in-game that we happen to disagree upon, it's a bit disconcerting that it may now affect relations in other games against Mok. I guess it's all perspective. I plan on sticking around on the board and in game for a while (despite losing only one agent out of a virtual army of knife-wielding killing machines).

Part of any game involving negotiations and diplomacy will revolve around credibility. And I am more than happy to declare publicly right now, if someone breaks an agreement with me -- or even contorts or distorts it to take what I view as an unfair advantage -- you had better expect to be called to account for it, whether privately or publicly, however I might choose.

And I would expect no different back at me from anyone else.

In-game, the concepts of messengers, carrier pigeons, town criers, and loyalists within the publick house are certainly not uncommon to medieval/fantasy societies. That's one reason skeletons in the closet are a relevant game mechanic.

Now, as an alternative to the game forums, I suppose I could take the time to write 13 separate e-mails, representing private messages to each Kingdom, telling them of another Kingdom's treachery. But this is where we move to out-of-game conveniences and concepts (which I will also get into), and I'm just not going to bother doing that given the fact that I have a pretty busy life as it is. So in the forum it will most likely go. We have seen this numerous times in other game forums, and barring any rules against it, I imagine we will continue seeing it in the future.

On the out-of-game level, we already have Valhalla, and it's very common for players in any hobby to have or develop reputations. And if someone backstabs me in a game, again, I am more than happy to declare publicly right now, you had better expect to be called to account for it. And again, I would expect no different back at me from anyone else.

As an example, Kevin has a reputation for being an excellent player (top of Valhalla rankings right now) and for keeping his word (even going above-and-beyond to fix matters in game 106, when he inadvertently broke a NAP). That's on him, and that's totally legitimate, IMO.

But it also swings the other way, and if someone does the crime, he should be ready to do the time, whether that means greater suspicion or leeriness. Sometimes you can bifurcate this depending on the persona or the Kingdom, but generally speaking, I think all of this is fair game, and I for one am going to take all information that I have available to me into consideration when I play a non-anonymous game.

Sorry if this is tl;dr. And again, no offense intended toward anyone, and I have no beef with anyone involved in this latest brouhaha... as I said, I just feel strongly about this subject.