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**HeadHoncho** · 10-22-2013, 11:03 PM

So after getting tripped up by yet another rules nuance, I failed an enamor because I was already at maximum reaction level (Tolerant in an enemy's region). I went back and reviewed the rules, and fine, that's legit, I blew it. So I wasted an important King order.

But should the order failure also continue on to charge me the entire 16,000 gold for the privilege of failure?? Wow, does that seem like a high price to pay! This is the type of thing that makes the game a bit of a high barrier to entry, in my opinion.

If this is just the way that it goes, then fine, I will suck it up. But I was wondering what people's perspectives might be on this. Thanks.

**Cargus10** · 10-22-2013, 11:45 PM

(10-22-2013, 11:03 PM)HeadHoncho Wrote: So after getting tripped up by yet another rules nuance, I failed an enamor because I was already at maximum reaction level (Tolerant in an enemy's region). I went back and reviewed the rules, and fine, that's legit, I blew it. So I wasted an important King order.

But should the order failure also continue on to charge me the entire 16,000 gold for the privilege of failure?? Wow, does that seem like a high price to pay! This is the type of thing that makes the game a bit of a high barrier to entry, in my opinion.

If this is just the way that it goes, then fine, I will suck it up. But I was wondering what people's perspectives might be on this. Thanks.

Agreed that you should not be charged for the attempt. This is the sort of things that makes new players rage-quit.

**HeadHoncho** · 10-22-2013, 11:55 PM

Totally agree. On a related note, if you try and fail to raise influence with a 480 order at or above 20 influence, I really don't think you should be charged the 15K gold, either.

**Hawk_** · 10-23-2013, 12:05 AM

(10-22-2013, 11:55 PM)HeadHoncho Wrote: Totally agree. On a related note, if you try and fail to raise influence with a 480 order at or above 20 influence, I really don't think you should be charged the 15K gold, either.

You were already penalized when you wasted a King's order IMO.

The 16,000 penalty is not needed.

RE: the 480 limit. I don't think you are charged the 15,000 when you get the "Can not raise... " statement. I use 480 as a standing order a lot and have left it on for turns. I don't think I was burning gold.

**HeadHoncho** · 10-23-2013, 12:16 AM

(10-23-2013, 12:05 AM)Hawk_ Wrote: RE: the 480 limit. I don't think you are charged the 15,000 when you get the "Can not raise... " statement. I use 480 as a standing order a lot and have left it on for turns. I don't think I was burning gold.

Interesting, I don't think I've done it, so I don't know... I was just speculating based on the 470 experience.

That really does seem like the right principle, not being charged. I have the same concern regarding new players rage-quitting. I'm totally committed to this game, but seeing this result really made me very unhappy as well.

**Brogan** · 10-23-2013, 12:32 AM

I am surprised that you are charged, most of the orders don't charge for a failed attempt at whatever you are doing. I would consider your experience a game bug.

Lord Brogan

**HeadHoncho** · 10-23-2013, 12:36 AM

Was definitely charged, both on the orders log and after a math double-check of my treasury.

**Jumbie** · 10-23-2013, 02:59 AM

The ragequit issue is small enough that it's worth it for the overall game mechanic. (few newbies will make this mistake and only some of those will be mad enough to quit)

On the other hand, the money being used is a good for the interplayer mechanic. For instance, my last game the DW tried to denigrate me in a region where he didn't know my reaction level (It was already hostile) and he ended up wasting the money on it because he never checked it in the first place.

I know that's not the same as an enamor, but it's a similar dynamic at work for one side profiting off the mistakes of another.

Plus, based on the description of the order it makes sense the money has to be spent, since the attempt involves buying gifts and favors in return for influence. If you buy the gifts anf favors and the people reject you, how do you ask for the gifts back?

**Cargus10** · 10-23-2013, 04:41 AM

(10-23-2013, 02:59 AM)Jumbie Wrote: The ragequit issue is small enough that it's worth it for the overall game mechanic. (few newbies will make this mistake and only some of those will be mad enough to quit)

On the other hand, the money being used is a good for the interplayer mechanic. For instance, my last game the DW tried to denigrate me in a region where he didn't know my reaction level (It was already hostile) and he ended up wasting the money on it because he never checked it in the first place.

I know that's not the same as an enamor, but it's a similar dynamic at work for one side profiting off the mistakes of another.

Plus, based on the description of the order it makes sense the money has to be spent, since the attempt involves buying gifts and favors in return for influence. If you buy the gifts anf favors and the people reject you, how do you ask for the gifts back?

I respectfully disagree on the ragequit thing. Only because our player base is so very small to begine with. I signed 3 people up for a game a while back. One just didn't care for it - fair enough, it's not for everyone. But 2 left because of rules stuff similar to this,. I urged them to talk to the GM's about it, but I don't know if they ever really did beyond some cursory group emails.

The point is, 2 new players is actually a noticeable addition to the payer base. If *I* know of 2 people that quit due to unexpected and seemingly arbitrary rules mechanics, how many others have we lost? I don't know that there is any way to tell for sure, but it's a non-trivial problem I should think.

**kevindusi** · 10-23-2013, 05:08 AM

I've tried to get Bluefile to quit because he doesn't read the rules, but he just ends up calling me with questions instead of opening a PDF.