#146 Exploration Steel REX

[Jhereg]

The Gray Mouser too, was a double-major, as were another one or two not posting yet.

Cipher and I need to hook up and discuss how to resolve. Obviously we have time to fix it and it didn't effect T1 resolution.

I would like to check what selections were made. I am guessing one or two were quite popular and may need to be adjusted to minor status or have the difficulty increased.

The 2 point minor is a mistake - all the minors are 1 point.

So, assume (as always is the case) everything will be made right. Then give honest feedback (DuPont already did) on what you think of it in general, and if you would always pick any given objective(s). Don't worry - everyone can use this existing table, except all minors are 1 point, but what about how the change in this ESO model affects your initial outlook on the specific game, perhaps even prior to T1, do you enjoy the freedom to choose a path or like the random assignment instead, is there improved balance in this method as opposed to random assignment, and then speak to the issue most of the previous comments were about: should two majors be allowed, or should going for the Greater ESO mean you have one major and one minor from the other three categories. I believe that makes it harder, but perhaps that is what it should be. I'm sort of leaning that way.

You can add me to the list of double majors and one minor

[Panda]

Not sure exactly how everything should be handled, but glad the situation will be addressed.

Think that there should be a way to resubmit your ESO on turn two if you messed it up on turn 1. Maybe it would cost you an order or something.

Would like to see more challenge options, esp. in political. , but I guess when in doubt, grind out three dukes.

[Hamlet]

Comments on the new ESO.
First, as I said in a prior post, I am having trouble getting the same effort to reward ratio as we were getting with some of the prior ESOs. But that is not an issue, as Rick said he felt the prior ESOs may have been a little generous.
Second, I really struggled with my choices. The lesser ESO was certainly achievable, but I have never been satisfied with some lesser goal. It was difficult for me as the Sorcerer to pick 5 points I could accomplish, especially by Turn 10. My best choice seemed to be 2 majors and a minor. I am not sure there is any reason that 2 majors needs to be ruled out.
Finally, I really liked being able to pick my direction and focus (like someone else said above).
Taking all of that into account, I am a firm yes on the new ESO thing, just so we clear up a couple of the confusions. And I do vote for allowing players to get to 5 points with 1 or 2 majors as they so choose.
One final point. As a kingdom with lower starting influence, the ESO order on Turn 1 was a pretty big takeaway. I think it should be a free order.
Thanks

[Jumpingfist]

For comments
I think forcing control of a region as default is not fair some kingdoms this is much harder than others. I believe the default should not really favor any kingdom. Maybe T4 P5 A3. Consider that mostly the new players will have default because they know no better.
I like the selections they do make you think. If you want a major your going to take some risk, perfect.
The one that seems easy is control two artifacts. But it is 1 point and if a lot of people select it then it actually gets harder, also

I really like the ability to choose your path you plan to take. It also puts the failure of your objective more as your fault and not just a bad luck random selection of ESO requirements.

I think adept should be removed from rewards to make it so a max of only 2 wizards can be added and to do so you would need to be running a major objective.

[Panda]

Comments on the new ESO.
First, as I said in a prior post, I am having trouble getting the same effort to reward ratio as we were getting with some of the prior ESOs. But that is not an issue, as Rick said he felt the prior ESOs may have been a little generous.
Second, I really struggled with my choices. The lesser ESO was certainly achievable, but I have never been satisfied with some lesser goal. It was difficult for me as the Sorcerer to pick 5 points I could accomplish, especially by Turn 10. My best choice seemed to be 2 majors and a minor. I am not sure there is any reason that 2 majors needs to be ruled out.
Finally, I really liked being able to pick my direction and focus (like someone else said above).
Taking all of that into account, I am a firm yes on the new ESO thing, just so we clear up a couple of the confusions. And I do vote for allowing players to get to 5 points with 1 or 2 majors as they so choose.
One final point. As a kingdom with lower starting influence, the ESO order on Turn 1 was a pretty big takeaway. I think it should be a free order.
Thanks

My ESO order did not work. I am wracking my brain to figure out why.
I issued it as the last order - an order that normally I would not have been able to run based on my influence level.
It would explain a lot if it had to be an actual order, not a free extra order like the following says -

From the document on ESO - - - -
Only on Turn 1 Command Submission: Each player determines the specific Early Objectives for
his kingdom to achieve from a fairly comprehensive list of alternatives on Turn 1 via Order #991.
This does count against the Influenced based limit on the number of orders.

I dunno... It very well could have been yet another thing I scrooged up.

[Kellenved]

Comments on the new ESO.
First, as I said in a prior post, I am having trouble getting the same effort to reward ratio as we were getting with some of the prior ESOs. But that is not an issue, as Rick said he felt the prior ESOs may have been a little generous.
Second, I really struggled with my choices. The lesser ESO was certainly achievable, but I have never been satisfied with some lesser goal. It was difficult for me as the Sorcerer to pick 5 points I could accomplish, especially by Turn 10. My best choice seemed to be 2 majors and a minor. I am not sure there is any reason that 2 majors needs to be ruled out.
Finally, I really liked being able to pick my direction and focus (like someone else said above).
Taking all of that into account, I am a firm yes on the new ESO thing, just so we clear up a couple of the confusions. And I do vote for allowing players to get to 5 points with 1 or 2 majors as they so choose.
One final point. As a kingdom with lower starting influence, the ESO order on Turn 1 was a pretty big takeaway. I think it should be a free order.
Thanks

My ESO order did not work. I am wracking my brain to figure out why.
I issued it as the last order - an order that normally I would not have been able to run based on my influence level.
It would explain a lot if it had to be an actual order, not a free extra order like the following says -

From the document on ESO - - - -
Only on Turn 1 Command Submission: Each player determines the specific Early Objectives for
his kingdom to achieve from a fairly comprehensive list of alternatives on Turn 1 via Order #991.
This does count against the Influenced based limit on the number of orders.

I dunno... It very well could have been yet another thing I scrooged up.

I think you might have misread the last line, "This does count against the Influenced based limit on the number of orders." Definitely says it counts against orders....

[Panda]

Oh my! Yup, that explain it then.

[ixnay]

I like the new ESO system. Here are my thoughts (as a sophomore):

- make the default be whatever it was for each kingdom before (not a generic default)
- keep it so that it costs an order on turn 1 -- that's a one-action bonus for those kingdoms that choose default
- make it so you have to pick your rewards on turn 1 as well. I actually did this (and got an error), not knowing we pick rewards later. It seems more realistic that in working towards your select goals, you'd be nudging your forces/elements into position along the way. And make the "default" rewards randomized.
- let people opt to set ESO goals on turn 3, in which case they may ONLY do a reward-check on turn 15. That would give people a chance to get a feel for their position before committing. It would also help newbies.
- I like that you are required to include a regional goal.

[Wynand]

My general thoughts and suggestions for correcting the T1 outputs for game 146

- More customization is generally good; having said that, there are some options (both challenges and rewards) that are clearly better than others (you cannot compare a duke to two adepts - the adepts have way more potential, even to a non-magic kingdom; two red dragon brigades are not worth 4 points in comparison....).
- Don't agree with point made earlier that two majors and a minor (as they have been laid out) are necessarily harder than one major and three minors....it's very kingdom specific. I support this being allowed, to be sure.
- I really like not have to delcare what you will receive as a reward until you make your claim; this allows players to choose based on need and circumstance.
- The rewards are generally less impressive now; may or not be an issue (already noted by a few folks).
- There should still be an option to take a challenge (perhaps a major) related to your natural enemy - perhaps if you do this, you can get a 7 point reward!
- I agree with the point that several others have made - reward tables should be customized, at least by kingdom type (RD/GI/TR/BL/RA, GN/EL/DA/DW, AN, DE, UN, WA/SO/WI).
- An intentional option to only claim on turn 15 (declared on turn 1) might transform a 3 point reward into a 5 point reward.
- Three last place teams on turn 12 should receive an extra 2 reward points on turn 15, if they can claim. Maybe they need to meet fewer/reduced conditions.

Just some thoughts...

In terms of 146:

- Without understanding the mechanics, the easiest course of action for this game would likely be to allow for two majors and a minor and manually set these conditions as if the 991 orders had processed successfuly. I don't believe any particularly sensitive information about individual ESOs has been revealed in the forum.

All in all, I think this is a great advancement and I am excited that the team is continuing to evolve the game in anticipation of 3rd cycle.

Wynand

[Ry Vor]

In conference with Cipher, we feel the most expeditious solution for this first game with the new ESO model is to allow the 2 majors and we will manually adjust the magic dust and everything should be fine on T2 (according to theory - of course, this has never been attempted).

So players don't have to do anything. Panda and anyone else that blew the 991 completely (not the 2 majors issue) can write to support asap with your selection, since we have to make the changes across the board anyway.

We will be reviewing selections and trends and of course can change any objectives or rewards going forward, but those shown will be in place for this game, except the minor listed as 2 points is just 1 point.

Yes, we could make this ESO selection amazingly complicated: a game unto itself, but then the time spent there means we don't advance on all the other fronts. WYSIWYG, as Maximus wouldn't say, but we're going ahead with the number of choices, etc, for the foreseeable future.

Thanks all for your input. Sort of a fun exercise!