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The DE setup going back to Classic 2nd Cycle (with the Clipper program), clearly states, "As scandal is not relevant to the Demon Princes due to their completely evil nature, they have no skeletons in the closet" (c.f. attachment).
This isn't something that is new or recently thrown in but it's been in the game for quite a while and well before I was involved with the project. Maybe the Clipper program had a bug and it didn't handle the scandal spell properly for the DE but the newer Java program works fine and the DE is immune to scandal effects and doesn't have any skeletons associated with their kingdom.
I don't know why you guys are throwing in the AN in all of this unless the AN setup also says that scandal is irrelevant (which it doesn't) but you could try and experiment by casting a scandal on a Consul and find out for yourself.
So no harping that players haven't been notified because this has been documented for perhaps years in the DE setup file. Not my fault the older software didn't work properly that may have led to people's misconception...
07-27-2015, 10:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-27-2015, 10:17 PM by HeadHoncho.)
Clipper allowed 381 to work on DE (and AN). Experienced players always read that phrase to mean no starting skeletons for either AN or DE, but that Scandal "magically" allowed it to happen (even though it makes sense for 381 to fail on both Kingdoms).
Again, I'm not opposed to making AN and DE (and I think it really ought to be both, for consistency, especially since DE has been doing better as a Kingdom than AN) immune to 381, it's just a difference with past play experience.
Well if the spell worked on the DE before then you should have mentioned something back then on why the setup says one thing while the program does another.
07-27-2015, 10:23 PM (This post was last modified: 07-27-2015, 10:28 PM by HeadHoncho.)
I think it's very reasonable to read the setup to be talking about generic scandals (i.e. another way of saying "no skeletons"), and not the 381 "Scandal" spell.
PS: This entire thread is not about a critique. It's about notifying experienced players under Clipper of a change from past expectations.
That may be your opinion but that's not how the setups are worded because the AN and DE setups are clearly different (see attachment for the AN).
AN says, "There are no skeletons in the closet for the Ancient Ones". [no mention of scandal]
DE says, "As scandal is not relevant to the Demon Princes due to their completely evil nature, they have no skeletons in the closet".
Perhaps the DE text should have been reworded to say that scandal is irrelevant AND they have no skeletons in the closet but I didn't write those setups. I just copied them to the newer system so you may see the same wording as before but even with the original version, there's a clear difference between the two.
I think your way of parsing it is an acceptable way.
I also think it is reasonable for people to understand that the generic statement you quote above is not referring to the very specific 381 "Conjure Scandal" spell.
Regardless, it's a difference from past experience under Clipper.
Well, look at sleep immunity. Both consuls and demon princes are immune to sleep but that immunity doesn't just apply towards the #305 wizard spell but also other sleep effects as from each other's special abilities and any potential sleep effects from artifacts.
Both AN and DE setups state that their sleep ability is a "spell" (that they cast such upon a target) but the phrasing of their immunity doesn't actually state being immune to #305 or 306. The word "spell" is meant to be inclusive of both special ability and wizard spell. Personally, I would have phrased it differently so it's more exact but that's how it's been for a while (before I started).
To understand your argument, you're saying that because the DE setup didn't explicitly state #381 for the scandal spell, the program should treat both the AN and DE setups to be the same (even though they stated things differently). Sleep immunity wasn't explicitly stated by order # but consuls and demon princes are immune to all sleep effects (ability or spell). The same goes for scandal where its order # wasn't explicitly stated in the DE setup but the wording represents the scandal effect (spell or otherwise).
So the DE is immune to the scandal spell as well as having no skeletons in the closet. If the older program didn't work that way then there was a discrepancy of what was communicated to the players via kingdom setups and how the code should have worked...
My argument is although you can opt to parse the setup info that finely, in reality, at least some of it tends to be "flavor" text and then there's a bottom-line result that you figure out during play, either obviously or less obviously.
By a strict reading of the UN Setup, "The Underworld has great control over the hiring and training of agents THROUGHOUT ALAMAZE. In game terms, this is reflected by the Underworld receiving 1500 gold each time an agent is hired and each time an agent or fanatic is trained."
It's throughout Alamaze, so why wouldn't the UN get the bonus for their own agents?
What about fanatics who are hired, does the UN get 1500 gold? But it only says agents, though.
Or on another setup, what about the 10% GI diplomacy bonus to parley, is it only for 170 or also for 171?
My point is that there is some inherent ambiguity in all rule sets, and Alamaze is no exception. Sometimes you just have to find out during play, and just because the setup may be ambiguous or capable of another reading, that doesn't mean it will always be profitable or even appropriate to complain about the setup text... sometimes you just have to figure it out by experience.
That is one area where the forums are supposed to be a help, and that is my own goal and objective on things like this.
07-27-2015, 11:50 PM (This post was last modified: 07-27-2015, 11:51 PM by HeadHoncho.)
Again, no critique was intended by any of this. You're doing an amazing job.
I personally think this change makes sense, I just wanted people to be aware of it.
Honestly, I think if any change were to be made, it would be to give the AN the same courtesy. But that is Ry Vor's call. If 381 can conjure up something that could impact even the squeaky-clean AN, then down they go, I suppose. With three or four Consul targets, that could become a major problem, but whatever works...
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