AN 485 v 465

[Lord Thanatos]

Sure would have been nice to know the 485 order processes at 465 because this answers questions I had about the order sequence which I chalked up to my opponent having the Staff of Disdain. Oh well.

For what little it is worth ... it makes much more sense that this order be 485 instead of 465 to preserve its utility and the unique abilities of the AN kingdom. If a kingdom controls a region, declares AN an enemy and is successful with order 475 the AN cannot be above suspicious. If the order processed at 485 the AN could be at Tolerant. Is that outcome possible for only one of fifteen kingdoms so unbalancing? At 465 the AN is in no better position than any other kingdom.

Maybe order 465 should be 100% effective instead of 76%?

Again, just my two Imperator cents...

[Hawk_]

Sure would have been nice to know the 485 order processes at 465 because this answers questions I had about the order sequence which I chalked up to my opponent having the Staff of Disdain. Oh well.

For what little it is worth ... it makes much more sense that this order be 485 instead of 465 to preserve its utility and the unique abilities of the AN kingdom. If a kingdom controls a region, declares AN an enemy and is successful with order 475 the AN cannot be above suspicious. If the order processed at 485 the AN could be at Tolerant. Is that outcome possible for only one of fifteen kingdoms so unbalancing? At 465 the AN is in no better position than any other kingdom.

Maybe order 465 should be 100% effective instead of 76%?

Again, just my two Imperator cents...

The 465 order does offer the advantage of coming prior to a 480 standing order. That was one bright spot I noticed.

I think the AN is an extremely powerful position because of its ability to denigrate multiple times each turn and to enamour multiple times as well.

[Cipher]

The move from 485->465 happened in 2007, 8/10/07 to be exact as I dated the code change when I made it.
For whatever reason, 485 got picked up on the relaunch AN setup rather than the proper 465.
So this change here is not a recoding, it's fixing a typo.

Two comments from the view of the AN have been posted above, which is a necessary part of the story, but game balance issues have to address all of the kingdoms.
Of course being able to override opposing denigrations with the AN would be great (for the AN)!
But what does that do to interaction between the AN and their opponents?

Overall, we're looking at a kingdom that has 3 king orders available every turn, potentially moving to 4 with a successful ESO.
At 485 the AN would have the ability to move himself and/or additional kingdoms to Tolerant against an opponent's controlled region (assuming the opponent had issued enemy declarations, otherwise Friendly if that had not happened) in a single turn.
What is the defense to this? If the AN order comes after denigrations, then the AN could keep multiple kingdoms at Tolerant/Friendly as the target region is attacked. A % chance of success may offset some of this but, with 3 or 4 shots avail (EVERY turn!), the target is toast.
At 465, the region owning defender at least has the ability to keep one, single, solitary opponent at Suspicious.

This special ability is already quite special:
Can be used multiple times/turn (1 for each consul)
Costs half what the regular enamor costs
Can be used on behalf of other kingdoms
The only limitation is the location of the Consul and the 76% success rate.

So, overall, I'd say that A) there is a tremendous amount of uniqueness, and B) the AN is in DRAMATICALLY better position with this enamor than EVERY other kingdom. Nevermind that the regular 480 is available to the AN as well, just like every other kingdom.

[Lord Thanatos]

480 raises influence.

470 raises regional reaction.

Both 465 and 470 are before 475.

I still think the order should process at 485 for the same reason I like that dragons cannot investigate encounters -- it heightens the differences between kingdoms. Balance among kingdoms DETRACTS from Alamaze. It is the differences among kingdoms that keeps Alamaze unique among all other games.

With 15 players on the map it does not matter that the GI or AN or any other kingdom is perceived to be more powerful than the others. That fact helps to providemnfinite replay ability.

Everyone always focuses on the powerful aspects of a setup instead of the fact that rarely does a single kingdom face a single opponent.

Does the AN win more often than 1 game in 15? If not, there is no problem. Let the AN be over powered in this single area. After all the DE demon princess are NEVER worse than halfway between tolerant and suspicious. Are we going to alter that? Or the fact that dragons aren't affected by walls of fire? Unique abilities AND restrictions are what breath life into Alamaze.

[Cipher]

-- it heightens the differences between kingdoms. Balance among kingdoms DETRACTS from Alamaze. It is the differences among kingdoms that keeps Alamaze unique among all other games.

I would say that a lack of differences would definitely DETRACT from Alamaze, but maintaining balance among kingdoms is what ENHANCES Alamaze.

The challenge is to drive differences while keeping balance at the same time.

[Lord Thanatos]

-- it heightens the differences between kingdoms. Balance among kingdoms DETRACTS from Alamaze. It is the differences among kingdoms that keeps Alamaze unique among all other games.

I would say that a lack of differences would definitely DETRACT from Alamaze, but maintaining balance among kingdoms is what ENHANCES Alamaze.

The challenge is to drive differences while keeping balance at the same time.

You assume that my position regarding order 485 v 465 moves the AN toward game-compromising imbalance. I do not believe it does - at all.

We can talk about spell lists, wizard advancement costs, geographical position, likely early game foes, strength of Natural Enemy, reinforcement schedule, movement of groups, inherent abilities of group, types of troops in kingdom brigades, production in regions, regional reactions, starting resources, special rules, difficulty of ESO and SVC, quantity of leaders/wizards/troops, quality of same, awarding of status points, etc...

Often, those advocating a position too easily revert to an ill-defined balance issue by only discussing one item (i.e. special rules) and only in one-specific situation (i.e. political attack upon a controlled region).

Until I see one particular kingdom ruling the standings I do not believe we are anywhere near creating an imbalance in the game or the position.

Nobody answers my questions: Do the AN win more than 1 in 15 contests? Does it imbalance the game for the AN to be the ONLY kingdom that can affect regional reaction after order 475?

Hypothetical question: What if Ry Vor begins every contest as P5 instead of P4? I can see the howling now -- "It's not fair" "The WI is too powerful" "Demonic Visions on turn 1" "Nobody can beat the WI" "Teleporting Divisions" etc.... Ultimately this is nothing more than a 47,500 gold boost to the position [limited by specifically applying the gold instead of allowing the player to do so]. I happen to think this makes the WI position scarier, but certainly doesn't let him rule the roost. Certainly not any scarier than Demon Princes that teleport without range restriction, RD troops that can't ever be killed, GI troops with huge defensive characteristics, 3 Consuls, early kidnap orders, etc... The point I am making is ... Does this small change makes certain the WI position wins more than 1 in 15 contests? If I had to fight the WI does the P5 on turn 1, instead of a P4 make it too scary for me to fight him? Definitely NO and NO... Does it add further character to the position? Hell yes!

The 485 order is the same. Unless the position is too powerful to be overcome and/or unless it is winning far too many contests... our default position should be to ENHANCE differences among kingdoms even if it results in further slight imbalances.

Again, just my opinion.

[Cipher]

Since the 465 order placement has been in place for over 6 years now, you ARE arguing to keep it in place unless the AN is empirically shown to be too weak/has too many poor finishes then?

[Lord Thanatos]

Since the 465 order placement has been in place for over 6 years now, you ARE arguing to keep it in place unless the AN is empirically shown to be too weak/has too many poor finishes then?

No, I am positing that the 485 order would enhance the AN position and would not unduly imbalance the game. At the same time, the 465 order is nothing more than a 470 order that can be used on any kingdom.

Without the 465 order the AN kingdom would play nearly the same. With the 485 order the kingdom would have more uniqueness. More uniqueness, without introducing undue imbalance is a GREAT thing. This is my point!

It isn't that big of a deal. The AN is a kingdom I rarely play, but like quite a bit. The order at 485 is GREAT. At 465 it is more pedestrian. Why choose pedestrian over GREAT? Imbalance can be the only practical answer. Therefore, I have argued that the 485 order would not introduce an undue level of imbalance.

"The extremes are part of the fun." Kevin Dusi wrote in a different thread on a similar topic.

[kevindusi]

If Kevin Dusi wrote it, you can take it to the bank.

-Kevin Dusi

[Ry Vor]

Sometimes when I consider whether I should comment on a post, I think, "What would Kevin Dusi do?"