Parlay (170) and Diplomacy (171)

[Ry Vor]

Here's a bit on what I think will be made live soon:

1. You cannot successfully use either order to gain control of a PC which is controlled by an enemy where the enemy is friendly in the region and also controls the region. This in itself is fairly significant to current practice.
2. You need a General or above to use Parlay. You can use Diplomacy but your group power is at 75% without a General or above. In either order, you get a 25% bonus if your group has a Warlord.
3. An example of how Group Power and PC Resistance works out is that a tolerant group at 3 to 1 will succeed in Parlay barring enemy status and a few other factors for an uncontrolled PC with no status quo in play. Would fail on a controlled PC.
4. There are a number of other factors including enemy status, but the main things are the ratio of Group vs. PC value, and the regional reaction of the group's owner. Add 0.5 to RR so Friendly means the group value is divided by 1.5, Tolerant is divided by 2.5. A controlled PC is x2. Means taking PC's in suspicious regions is difficult.
5. A wizard casting 171 (Diplomacy) adds about 10% per power level to the group's power. So a P3 with a group base at 10,000 vs. PC would be at 13,000. This is very different from what has been in place.

There was never supposed to be so many 170 or 171 orders. Kingdoms were expected to attack PC's they wanted to take over except in favorable circumstances. These are important changes that will rationalize the orders and will affect the favorite tactics of many players.

[Mauler]

Here's a bit on what I think will be made live soon:

1. You cannot successfully use either order to gain control of a PC which is controlled by an enemy where the enemy is friendly in the region and also controls the region. This in itself is fairly significant to current practice.
2. You need a General or above to use Parlay. You can use Diplomacy but your group power is at 75% without a General or above. In either order, you get a 25% bonus if your group has a Warlord.
3. An example of how Group Power and PC Resistance works out is that a tolerant group at 3 to 1 will succeed in Parlay barring enemy status and a few other factors for an uncontrolled PC with no status quo in play. Would fail on a controlled PC.
4. There are a number of other factors including enemy status, but the main things are the ratio of Group vs. PC value, and the regional reaction of the group's owner. Add 0.5 to RR so Friendly means the group value is divided by 1.5, Tolerant is divided by 2.5. A controlled PC is x2. Means taking PC's in suspicious regions is difficult.
5. A wizard casting 171 (Diplomacy) adds about 10% per power level to the group's power. So a P3 with a group base at 10,000 vs. PC would be at 13,000. This is very different from what has been in place.

There was never supposed to be so many 170 or 171 orders. Kingdoms were expected to attack PC's they wanted to take over except in favorable circumstances. These are important changes that will rationalize the orders and will affect the favorite tactics of many players.

With the changes to the casualty/attrition rules, they make having to attack all PCs less palatable. Perhaps if the PC attacks are to be more frequent, the rules on kingdom brigades can be changed. I'm all for pops taking out lots of troops, but with kingdom brigades being so precious, attacking every pop becomes untenable outside of kingdoms with summoned troops. Changing the bias so that kingdom brigades are rarely lost when other troops are present could be another solution.

[DuPont]

I'm all for these changes. I have found the 171 is way overpowered.

[kevindusi]

I'm all for these changes. I have found the 171 is way overpowered.

I will still take your cities.

[Kellenved]

Interesting. Will definitely shift the balance of power to the political kingdoms (DA/EL/GN/AN/DE). Wizard kingdoms will also gain a step up with their infuriate populace spells. HC and skeletons/closet will be even more valuable. Biggest losers will be military kingdoms, especially when combined with changes to 565.

All in all, games will last much, much longer. Any plans to extend the 40 turn limit? And what about the status point issue? Given the changes, it's perfectly possible for a wizard kingdom to hunker down and focus on defending his/her region while racking up status points via collecting artifacts....

[Kalrex]

I'm fine with this. I wish Parlays neutralized nobles on the turn they occur as well.

[The Usurper]

Not sure what to think until it all plays out. A good change to follow up on this could be the group search for PC order, where you can specify when your group would stop. Ie stop on village or town.

[Ry Vor]

Interesting. Will definitely shift the balance of power to the political kingdoms (DA/EL/GN/AN/DE). Wizard kingdoms will also gain a step up with their infuriate populace spells. HC and skeletons/closet will be even more valuable. Biggest losers will be military kingdoms, especially when combined with changes to 565.

Here's a different perspective. The purpose of the change wasn't to shift balance to one type of kingdom over another, but to correct a serious issue particularly with #171.

So now Parlay requires a General (favors military kingdoms), is improved with a Warlord (favors military kingdoms), is more dependent on group strength (favors military kingdoms), and otherwise forces more battles vs. PC instead of diplomacy (favors military kingdoms).

Meanwhile, the Diplomacy resolution is way toned down, which reduces an unfair advantage that was in place for the magic based kingdoms, at least in regard to using that spell so frequently.

[Hawk_]

Interesting. Will definitely shift the balance of power to the political kingdoms (DA/EL/GN/AN/DE). Wizard kingdoms will also gain a step up with their infuriate populace spells. HC and skeletons/closet will be even more valuable. Biggest losers will be military kingdoms, especially when combined with changes to 565.

Here's a different perspective. The purpose of the change wasn't to shift balance to one type of kingdom over another, but to correct a serious issue particularly with #171.

So now Parlay requires a General (favors military kingdoms), is improved with a Warlord (favors military kingdoms), is more dependent on group strength (favors military kingdoms), and otherwise forces more battles vs. PC instead of diplomacy (favors military kingdoms).

Meanwhile, the Diplomacy resolution is way toned down, which reduces an unfair advantage that was in place for the magic based kingdoms, at least in regard to using that spell so frequently.

I think the changes are a positive towards game balance. I would also like to see the effectiveness of status quo improved vs. the Diplomacy spell and I think these changes will help.

[The Usurper]

A couple of things have been done to limit the magic kingdoms.

Chaos
Diplomacy

And we all know battle magic is worthless at mid game and beyond.

Any suggestions on improving the magic kingdoms?