#145 - New Player Primeval with Wizard Mentor

[Rogal]

Darn, I wanted to see how tuff it is getting that sword, not just the encounter but the whole process. It was more of a test to see if its worth spending a certain amount of time to get it vs how fast some games finish. I figured you got the Ring, and that means there is a 50% chance you got the sword key. Normal weapon artifacts are worth getting since there are so many, but the Big named one I am not certain.

[Panda]

Mister Gnome, check you PMs, please Sir!

[Jumpingfist]

I misspoke their are 4 keys. Gem, maker, sword, orator
Gem I do not have

[Lord Diamond]

Darn, I wanted to see how tuff it is getting that sword, not just the encounter but the whole process. It was more of a test to see if its worth spending a certain amount of time to get it vs how fast some games finish. I figured you got the Ring, and that means there is a 50% chance you got the sword key. Normal weapon artifacts are worth getting since there are so many, but the Big named one I am not certain.

Almost all the artifacts are well worth getting. The 'Horn of the Intrepid' being a glaring exception.

[Rogal]

Since I blew it on this quest to get the sword can someone explain to me how to do it the correct way, or at least the way a Veteran player would get it? I ask this because it seems like in a normal game, the sword is way too much of a time sink to get vs any other general bonus weapon. For example, I have divined 9 times to get weapons data. I know now the name and location of the sword but not the key (sword bty is in the ocean for a bonus step of building a navy and making a group the correct size to not drown an army). I found out if you go to a location but do not have the key, you get clues on how to get the key doing an unusual sighting of the corresponding item your going after. Now I learned I am too late to get the key so at least I can go after some weapons, but darn it, it sure seems like you have to luck out a little to get the sword data.

So lets see if I redo this quest in the future, should I do this?
1) Divine unknown category for the key
Divine for sword
2) divine locations for sword and key
3) send group to get key
4) get key and move to sword
5) get sword
6) profit

This is a lot of steps not to mention all the miss attempts to divine the data I really need and get other artifact short names. the main question is time wasted getting the item I want vs game ending or someone else with more experience grabbing it. I mention experience due to an old Oracle article I read where it came into question the number of places an item is randomly placed in the game world, I think it mentioned 3. If that is true, someone could 888 3 locations (if in range) and start heading to the key right away. If your a kingdom with good leaders, not a bad idea since you could just port in wizards at the final stage for the big encounter but keep them home to level up in the key phase. Am I off base here or what am I missing?

[Hawk_]

And be sure to study this:

When is Discretion the Better Part of Valor?
Oracle 4
Rick McDowell


Sooner or later one or more of your proud groups will encounter something very strange. Not a known adversary, for which you can draw on your experience, like a town's defenses or an enemy army, but something completely unknown. Now, as their ruler, you must decide whether to order your heroic leaders and expensively developed wizards, along with a handful of their best troops, forward into the unfathomable. Here they will be at their greatest risk; each life threatened like a candle in the wind. Perhaps none will return.

However, there is also the potential reward to consider for the risks taken. Imagine vast treasures and a powerful artifact! Do you risk their loss, or leave the exploration to those more bold or foolish?
The above may have startled some among you, who may have assumed encounters with the unusual involved little more than stooping to gather gems and magical items.

Be forewarned: more than one Power 5 wizard or warlord has met his end in mortal combat with the paranormal. The important point is that any of these unfortunate deaths could have been avoided with better tactics and planning on the part of the king who ordered the mission.
Some unusual sighting may not lead to combat for the patrol dispatched to investigate. Instead, there may be a meeting with a wandering wizard, the discovery of a flock of giant eagles who might be befriended, a riddle or clue to an artifact's location, or a gateway to another world, among other possibilities.

The result of these encounters could depend on a number of factors. These factors would include the race of the patrol, its composition (number and levels of heroes and wizards), and the tactical selection chosen for the
encounter.

These same factors will be important for combat resolved encounters as well, but for different reasons. For example, the wizard might be frightened off by too aggressive an approach, or may choose not to join a group already laden with magical talent. The eagles may allow the Rangers to ride, but not those heavy Giants!
A Peek Inside the Black Box. Normally of greater risk are those encounters which result in deadly combat.

First, let's take a look at how the struggle will be decided. When battle is imminent, the patrol will be evaluated for its prowess and this will be compared with that of its foe. The dozen troops in the patrol are assigned a value based on their kingdom and their morale. The strong military powers will enjoy the same sort of advantage they do in other battles. If we assume each veteran has a value of 1, each giant may have a value of, say, 3. Most kingdoms then will range in value somewhere between 1.0 and 1.7 per soldier. The per troop value is multiplied by 12 for the 12 soldiers in the patrol, and further multiplied by the group morale.

Next, the value of its heroes is added. Wizards are then added to the total, with a multiplier added to their power level of somewhere between 5 and 10 depending on their kingdom. (Since a Power 2 Warlock wizard knows considerably more magic than a Power 2 Dwarven, he receives a correspondingly higher multiplier.) Thus, a Power 2 will have a value of somewhere between 10 and 20. Finally, if the group is in possession of an artifact which would aid its attack in combat, this will add a significant amount, say 25, to the total. Most, not all, opponents in these encounters will have a value between 50 and 100.


The combat value of the patrol is now compared to that of the foe, to yield a percentage chance of defeating the foe prior to modification for tactical selection. Regardless of the superiority of the patrol, there is always a minimum 5% chance of failure. The tactical modification is important and works as follows. A tactical selection of 1 (Probe) reduces the chance of succeeding by 25% of what it would be normally. (Example: if the chance of success was 70%, a tactical selection of 1 would reduce it to 45%. Conversely, a tactical selection of 3 (Determined Attack) increases the likelihood of overcoming the adversary by 25%.


So why not choose the determined attack always? Here's where the other foot falls. Remember, the tactical selection in combat determines the casualty acceptance level and the level of risk taken. These are your heroes, not your common troops. when you tell them to risk it all to achieve an objective, they don't need much coercion. A tactical selection of 3 increases the net chance of any figure being killed by 50%; a selection of 1 reduces the chance by 50%. Here are two examples. If the chance of success in overcoming the foe before tactical modification was 40%, use of Tac 3 would increase the chance of being slain by 21% over its former level. If the unmodified chance of success was 80%, the increase to fatality probability per leader or wizard under Tac 3 would be 11% over the former level. Equivalent reductions would occur with Tac 1.


In addition, regardless of tactic being used, all heroes and wizards begin with a base chance of being killed in a reconnaissance of unusual sighting that is three times as high as they would in any other type of battle. Thus, if a captain in a group to group combat normally faces a 14% chance of perishing, his base risk is 42% with an unusual sighting. This risk would be modified by the strength of the patrol vs. its opponent from a 70% starting point. Let's assume a patrol whose formula, prior to tactical modification, sows a 80% chance of succeeding. The following shows the modification to both the chance of success in overcoming the foe, and the resultant likelihood of the captain perishing.

Shortcutting through formulas we arrive at:
Tactic % Success % Cpt Slain
1 55 19
2 80 38
3 95 57
Each leader and wizard is individually "tested" to determine their survival. Note that each figure adds to the strength of the group and so diminishes the chance of all individuals being killed, since the group is stronger by their presence and so better able to quickly overcome the foe.


What can be learned from this confusing mess? Well, for one, hopefully the above illustrates the detail the computer searches through in determining the outcome of the Order #140 battles. These "Unusual Encounters" battles and sea battles are magnitudes less data-intensive that are group to group battles or population center engagements. We would never attempt to explain the computer's gyrations and acrobatics in an article for these battles.
Second, the player should appreciate the significant risk his figures are at in their quest to recover artifacts.

It should be clear that a powerful patrol is much more likely to recover an artifact with fewer losses than is a weak patrol. Third, greater attention should be devoted to tactics in these encounters than might first have been assumed. For example, if a group chances upon an unusual sighting without knowing what may lay within, it might be best to attempt a probe (Tac 1) first, to glean a better insight into the dangers within, rather than risking all for something which might be so little importance to the kingdom.

The probe may end up being the best tactic anyway. On the other hand, if the group has a good idea that a particularly useful artifact is within, and speed is of the essence, then a Tac 3 approach may be called for, especially if the patrol is not particularly powerful and so would need the advantage this tactic provides, while accepting the increased risk to its heroes and leaders.
Next time you encounter the unknown, maybe there will be a trace of familiarity after all.

[Beatific]

And be sure to study this:

When is Discretion the Better Part of Valor?
Oracle 4
Rick McDowell


Sooner or later one or more of your proud groups will encounter something very strange. Not a known adversary, for which you can draw on your experience, like a town's defenses or an enemy army, but something completely unknown. Now, as their ruler, you must decide whether to order your heroic leaders and expensively developed wizards, along with a handful of their best troops, forward into the unfathomable. Here they will be at their greatest risk; each life threatened like a candle in the wind. Perhaps none will return.

However, there is also the potential reward to consider for the risks taken. Imagine vast treasures and a powerful artifact! Do you risk their loss, or leave the exploration to those more bold or foolish?
The above may have startled some among you, who may have assumed encounters with the unusual involved little more than stooping to gather gems and magical items.

Be forewarned: more than one Power 5 wizard or warlord has met his end in mortal combat with the paranormal. The important point is that any of these unfortunate deaths could have been avoided with better tactics and planning on the part of the king who ordered the mission.
Some unusual sighting may not lead to combat for the patrol dispatched to investigate. Instead, there may be a meeting with a wandering wizard, the discovery of a flock of giant eagles who might be befriended, a riddle or clue to an artifact's location, or a gateway to another world, among other possibilities.

The result of these encounters could depend on a number of factors. These factors would include the race of the patrol, its composition (number and levels of heroes and wizards), and the tactical selection chosen for the
encounter.

These same factors will be important for combat resolved encounters as well, but for different reasons. For example, the wizard might be frightened off by too aggressive an approach, or may choose not to join a group already laden with magical talent. The eagles may allow the Rangers to ride, but not those heavy Giants!
A Peek Inside the Black Box. Normally of greater risk are those encounters which result in deadly combat.

First, let's take a look at how the struggle will be decided. When battle is imminent, the patrol will be evaluated for its prowess and this will be compared with that of its foe. The dozen troops in the patrol are assigned a value based on their kingdom and their morale. The strong military powers will enjoy the same sort of advantage they do in other battles. If we assume each veteran has a value of 1, each giant may have a value of, say, 3. Most kingdoms then will range in value somewhere between 1.0 and 1.7 per soldier. The per troop value is multiplied by 12 for the 12 soldiers in the patrol, and further multiplied by the group morale.

Next, the value of its heroes is added. Wizards are then added to the total, with a multiplier added to their power level of somewhere between 5 and 10 depending on their kingdom. (Since a Power 2 Warlock wizard knows considerably more magic than a Power 2 Dwarven, he receives a correspondingly higher multiplier.) Thus, a Power 2 will have a value of somewhere between 10 and 20. Finally, if the group is in possession of an artifact which would aid its attack in combat, this will add a significant amount, say 25, to the total. Most, not all, opponents in these encounters will have a value between 50 and 100.


The combat value of the patrol is now compared to that of the foe, to yield a percentage chance of defeating the foe prior to modification for tactical selection. Regardless of the superiority of the patrol, there is always a minimum 5% chance of failure. The tactical modification is important and works as follows. A tactical selection of 1 (Probe) reduces the chance of succeeding by 25% of what it would be normally. (Example: if the chance of success was 70%, a tactical selection of 1 would reduce it to 45%. Conversely, a tactical selection of 3 (Determined Attack) increases the likelihood of overcoming the adversary by 25%.


So why not choose the determined attack always? Here's where the other foot falls. Remember, the tactical selection in combat determines the casualty acceptance level and the level of risk taken. These are your heroes, not your common troops. when you tell them to risk it all to achieve an objective, they don't need much coercion. A tactical selection of 3 increases the net chance of any figure being killed by 50%; a selection of 1 reduces the chance by 50%. Here are two examples. If the chance of success in overcoming the foe before tactical modification was 40%, use of Tac 3 would increase the chance of being slain by 21% over its former level. If the unmodified chance of success was 80%, the increase to fatality probability per leader or wizard under Tac 3 would be 11% over the former level. Equivalent reductions would occur with Tac 1.


In addition, regardless of tactic being used, all heroes and wizards begin with a base chance of being killed in a reconnaissance of unusual sighting that is three times as high as they would in any other type of battle. Thus, if a captain in a group to group combat normally faces a 14% chance of perishing, his base risk is 42% with an unusual sighting. This risk would be modified by the strength of the patrol vs. its opponent from a 70% starting point. Let's assume a patrol whose formula, prior to tactical modification, sows a 80% chance of succeeding. The following shows the modification to both the chance of success in overcoming the foe, and the resultant likelihood of the captain perishing.

Shortcutting through formulas we arrive at:
Tactic % Success % Cpt Slain
1 55 19
2 80 38
3 95 57
Each leader and wizard is individually "tested" to determine their survival. Note that each figure adds to the strength of the group and so diminishes the chance of all individuals being killed, since the group is stronger by their presence and so better able to quickly overcome the foe.


What can be learned from this confusing mess? Well, for one, hopefully the above illustrates the detail the computer searches through in determining the outcome of the Order #140 battles. These "Unusual Encounters" battles and sea battles are magnitudes less data-intensive that are group to group battles or population center engagements. We would never attempt to explain the computer's gyrations and acrobatics in an article for these battles.
Second, the player should appreciate the significant risk his figures are at in their quest to recover artifacts.

It should be clear that a powerful patrol is much more likely to recover an artifact with fewer losses than is a weak patrol. Third, greater attention should be devoted to tactics in these encounters than might first have been assumed. For example, if a group chances upon an unusual sighting without knowing what may lay within, it might be best to attempt a probe (Tac 1) first, to glean a better insight into the dangers within, rather than risking all for something which might be so little importance to the kingdom.

The probe may end up being the best tactic anyway. On the other hand, if the group has a good idea that a particularly useful artifact is within, and speed is of the essence, then a Tac 3 approach may be called for, especially if the patrol is not particularly powerful and so would need the advantage this tactic provides, while accepting the increased risk to its heroes and leaders.
Next time you encounter the unknown, maybe there will be a trace of familiarity after all.

A nice summary, however, it seems on the face to this Noo(wanna)B to only be useful if you know the troop values in question. Since the chances of success can "wag" by as much as three fold given the range you suggest (Giant = 3.0, Wizard kingdoms = 1 or less), if you do not know these relative strengths, you are basically left guessing. And, despite my best searching, all I have found about troop strengths is that there is a loose undefined correlation with the generic race descriptions in the subsection for military (very low, low, medium, high, very high). Is there a rough numerical assessment of the strength of each of the kingdom militaries somewhere in the archives? If not, are any of you vets at least willing to share the range of values within the game (max = 10, min = 0.7). At least then you can approximate the meanings of very low, low, ok, good, very good (assuming, of course, linearity in the progression - which is not necessarily a safe assumption). Does this make sense?

[Ukla the Mok]

Shortcutting through formulas we arrive at:
Tactic % Success % Cpt Slain
1 55 19
2 80 38
3 95 57

So, once again I was pushing the limits of probability. Hit the 20% chance of a whiff and a 38% chance of having to carry all the pieces of my leader back to camp.

So it goes...at least it's happened to others...

[Rogal]

I am already trying to get to Mt. Doom, so that number crunching part I have gotten over and accepted the risks. This game is a noobie game and I am trying to see the benefits of time wasted going after the Great sword, or just go grab 2 slaying weapons and call it a day. Also, what info am I missing to speed up the quest to get to Mt. doom. Now if only I could get those darn eagles to fly me all the way we could have had a hobbit movie be a one parter.

[Jumpingfist]

In general I like to diving for KING artifacts. KING has the 4 keys and some other nice artifacts like staff of disdain. I do not quest specifically for the Sword artifact I am just looking for any good artifact and King has or leads to some of the best.
If I were to just want a strong weapon I think I would divine weapons and be happy with two of them instead of trying to get just Elan. Personally I do not find weapons to be the best use of my artifact finding. I would rather have stone of all minds even for a military kingdom over most any weapon. Getting those mages over max level will aid more.