The DK goes or I go

[DuPont]

I've complained about this before but I'm going to say it one last time. The DK's ability to constantly kill everybody in whatever region they put their filthy feet in has to go or I'm quitting any game that has them in it. The moment I see somebody sign up as the DK, I'll drop from the signup or if I get into a game with them, the moment they put their filthy feet in my region, I'm just going to drop. It's a fucking ridiculous power and it needs to go. I'm not kidding about this - I'm in a game where it's only turn 4 and because the filthy DK has been hanging around, the city is already down below 34000 population. This is just ridiculously overpowered and I'm not putting up with it any longer. I'm staying in this game until turn 7, but then if the DK hasn't been nerfed (or at least, an announcement made that this ability is going to be removed) and the DK is still in my region, I'm gone from that game. End of story. It's no fun to play against something like this.

I am 100% serious about how much I hate this and I'm not going to deal with it.

[Zar@shand]

I agree, if the design requires the DK to have some kind of plague ability, it would make sense to have it as a regional effect, so it is able to be dispelled. Even better it would require an order or spell to work, thus being an aggressive action taken by the DK player, rather than a possible passive one.

[Eregnon]

I'm in a game where the DK has been running rampant in a region, and it actually makes it pretty easy to control, since villages, towns and cities are all essentially the same. You just count the pop centers, and don't worry about type.

[DuPont]

I'm in a game where the DK has been running rampant in a region, and it actually makes it pretty easy to control, since villages, towns and cities are all essentially the same. You just count the pop centers, and don't worry about type.

See, I consider that quite a problem. You shouldn't be able to control Triumvia simply by taking over the villages. Just to point out how ridiculous the DK's ability is, it's possible for them to kill half the population of Alamaze by turn 8, and this simply by moving groups, they don't have to do anything else but move into a region. A DK player could decided, on turn 0, to send a brigade into Stormgate to kill everybody so before a kingdom could come and get it and start recruiting Stormgate Guards, the population would be gone. There's no other kingdom that has a power anywhere near this in comparison. And it's even more insane when you consider that this power exists at the start of the game and doesn't even require an order. Even things like the Pirate cove and Druid grove don't kick in until turn 4 and require an order. The DK brigades don't even have to roll in shit before spreading their filthy plague. I simply refuse to play in any game where this filthy kingdom is on the board until this is effect is gone.

[unclemike]

Well, it's your choice of course not to play in a particular game, but the innate plague ability of the Deathknights won't be dispellable. Much like the innate ability of other kingdoms are likewise not dispellable as the Demon Prince's gate ability, or Red Dragon's magical breath attack, etc.

The plague (by casting the wizard spell or innate kingdom ability) is meant to challenge others in slowing down their military growth. It's been that way since the beginning of Alamaze, however there are ways to increase census that may soften the effect (e.g., raise population center census/raise regional census spells, buildings like Bazaar, Forum, Port, or by issuing the improve population center order #600 which increases the census each time).

Keep in mind that the plague only affects recruiting from popcenters. There's always the possibility of recruiting from the wild (non-popcenters) for companion troops.

For the recent drop in a game because of the plague, the decision to drop was questionable because the position was a wizard kingdom, which are the least affected by a plague. Evil wizards can summon undead troops. Good wizards have the Summon Monster I-IX spells. Plus, there's the temporary Instant Summon Phantoms/Phantasmal Forces spells for extra troops in a pinch.

Actually, those Summon Monster I-IX spells may be more valuable than some would think. I forgot the player's name, but in an actual game, instead of going for the high-end powerful troop types like Shambling Mounds (level 9), the player summoned a bunch of Troglodytes (level 1) and Gnolls (level 2) to build a military force.

Even though the group comprised of a bunch of low-level troops, it ended up with a surprisingly strong combat value. Elite troop experience, up to 160 morale, warlord-level leaders, and pwr-5+ wizard support, it ended up being a group to be wreckened with for sure. Wizard kingdoms start the game with around 7 wizards, so they're able to summon 7 brigades per turn in addition to companion brigades if necessary. That's 14 brigades in two turns, 21 brigades in three, etc. No reason to drop from a plague if you're playing a wizard kingdom. None at all.

So, even though a plague in your region may be undesired and uncomfortable, it's not a game-ending effect. Hang in there and you may surprise yourself in being able to handle it. It's not really as bad as some are carrying on about it.

[DuPont]

UM, I think you are missing my objections to the Death Knight's filthy plague ability. I did not think having them in my region where I was playing the AL had destroyed my ability to compete or else I would not have offered it as a standby position. I think comparing the DK filthy plague to other kingdom abilities like the RD's breath or the DE teleporting princes completely misses the mark. Nobody else has an ability that has such a large effect. Saying that there's ways to fight back against it I also think misses the mark - most of the spells would be high level in the first place, where as the DK's plague requires nothing more than their shit-encrusted soldiers to show up. And even a high level spell like Raise Regional Census does no more than break even (while the DK's plague kills 15% and Raise Census goes up 20%, it fails 25% of the time, which would bring it's average to 15$).
Beyond the game mechanics, I find the very concept of this plague ability to be offensive and I simply won't play against it under any circumstances. I will continue to enjoy any game as long as the DK is not in it or at least on the other side of the map. The moment they show up in my region, I will drop.

[unclemike]

Well, I think this negative opinion is just that and without merit. As I explained above, there are countermeasures to take to combat the plague ability. Or, be more aggressive and attack the Deathknights kingdom if you truly disfavor them. Hope you enjoy the new challenges to the game.

[unclemike]

I'm adding my response to Charles' post here since the other thread is meant for active game messages. First, some background information to help understand the situation.

The Deathknights (kingdom setup is attached below). A brand-new kingdom that some love and others hate.

When I initially designed the kingdom, I thought there would be some negative feedback due to its very nature: devil-like kingdom, hell hounds, pit fiends that immolate, muster the fallen ability that raises skeletons from the dead, summon evil angel ability with order number 666 no less, and torment prisoner to extract secret information from prisoners to hurt other kingdoms. Just look at the attached file of the ruler's portrait. Surely, not for the younger ages.

However, the aspect of the kingdom that is of concern to a few is the deadly plague ability that kills off 15% of the human population. It's an innate ability that doesn't need to be issued by the player. There are several kingdoms in Alamaze that have special abilities to distinguish them from the others, so that's not the issue.

The concern is that the plague ability may be too powerful for the game however, there is a wizard spell that does the same thing but at a 20% death rate. The Deathknights is a reduced 15%. The wizard spell may be countered by a wizard's dispel action, but the Deathknight's plague is not preventable due to it being an innate ability of the kingdom.

However, there are other countermeasures that players may utilize to prevent and/or limit the Deathknight plague ability. As mentioned above, players may replace the deaths by a number of actions: two spells that may replace the population (one for a single population center, the other for an entire region's worth of population centers). Or, construct buildings that increase the population losses. Or, issue the order number 600 which increases the population numbers each time it is used.

In addition, players may recruit from other areas on the map since the plague only affects population center recruitment. Every kingdom has special companion brigades that may be recruited away from population centers every turn to replenish dwindling ranks.

Players may also cast a number of wizard spells like summon undead troops (skeletons, ghouls, wights, mummies, phantoms) to the summon monster I-IX spells (troglodytes, gnolls, owlbears, gargoyles, manticores, ettins, umber hulks, gelatinous cubes, shambling mounds, plus illusionary phantasmal forces). So, there's all kinds of ways to recover from the Deathknight plague ability.

Including just to simply attack the Deathknight kingdom early on to prevent them from getting ahead in the game. This is true for any kingdom that a player thinks that has the advantage in order to prevent them from growing in power as a neighboring kingdom.

Charles, you mentioned in your post about seeing the data to show that this plague ability is overpowered, but you won't find any. The reason why is that since there are multiple ways to counteract the effect, the plague is of little concern for many kingdoms, and may be ignored by most. It's an interesting feature for a brand-new kingdom that may or may not have an effect on others, but it certainly is not overpowered by any means, and does not unbalance the game.

However, despite explaining all of that, some negative opinion continues. That's ok. We're all entitled to our opinions after all, but it's only an opinion.

For casual readers on our forum, the negative opinion by one or more players of a certain kingdom does not reflect the general attitude by our players that enjoy Alamaze. Usually, when a negative opinion is shared on the forum it may be due to the player experiencing bad luck in the game, or that the Deathknight's special ability just happens to restrict one of that player's favorite elements in the game (such as recruiting from population centers instead of using wizards to summon troops or such).

Actually, we've done quite a bit of testing during the design stage of Alamaze's most recent upgrade to ensure that the special abilities of the 8 new kingdoms are properly configured and carefully balanced regarding game mechanics.

However, despite that effort, every once in a while a new spell or kingdom ability may end up becoming a difficult constraint for some players of a particular playstyle (aggressive, passive, etc.), who no longer will be able to use their favorite tactic. Some new elements that were added to the game in the most recent release may make the game more challenging for those who wish to remain static in their favorite strategies.

This is one of the advantages and possible drawbacks of improving game design. Should we add a new feature like mithril to create more powerful weapons and armor for the highly skilled craftsmen of the Elves and Dwarves or not? Should we add a new game mechanic like having a powerful wizard craft magical scrolls for the kingdom? Alamaze never had the concept of scrolls before, so would this new feature unbalance the game and become a major disadvantage for the more military-style kingdoms such as the Sacred Order of Knights?

At Alamaze, we try to appease all players in their particular endeavors and playstyles while at the same time, develop new mechanics in game design to keep the gaming experience fresh and challenging for everyone involved. It's a delicate balance but we try our best to keep the PBeM community interested in the game.

[gkmetty]

I returned to the game shortly after the update was implemented. This is the information I can provide that may be relevant to the sensitive situation that has occurred.

My first game after returning to Alamaze was game 5632. I thought the Death Knights Plague ability was intriguing, so I played the Death Knights in this game. Dupont played in a neighboring region, and I sent Death Knight troops into his region early. I did not understand what the Plague effects included so I sent DK troops into 3 neighboring regions. My 3 neighbors did not appreciate my troops bringing plague to their regions, so they took out their frustrations by cooperatively attacking my region. DuPont was one of these invaders. I lasted until around turn 20 before leaving this game.

My next game was game 5634. I was in this game to the end and while I did not play the Death Knights, they were a major player in the game. Once again DuPont was on the wrong end of the Death Knights Plague. In this game DuPont played the Free Traders with one of the weakest militaries in the game and the Death Knights were in a neighboring region. It’s a bad combination when you have a weak military, and your neighbor is a strong military kingdom with an incentive to move their troops out of their region. I don’t recall all of the details, but I know that DuPont’s Free Traders did not last long.

My next relevant experience is in the game that has brought this situation to everyone’s attention, game 5643. I learned how the DK position should be played and I really liked the kingdom abilities, so I jumped in with the Death Knights again. Once again DuPont was my neighbor with the Elementalist position. Mage kingdoms tend to be slower starters, so I sent my DK troops into the EL region on turn 1 and they stayed there for the entire 10 turns of the game, so far. DuPont had enough at around turn 7 and sought a replacement player.

I think it would be fair to say the DuPont has not had a great experience against the Death Knights.

I love the DK kingdom. It has so many great features. The Plague ability is the defining trait, but it is both a curse and a boon. It forces the DK leader to move his troops out of his region early which, in my case slows discovery of my home region, and puts you in conflict very early in the game. This is not a good strategy for many players.

Take what you will from this brief history. I am not a good judge if the Plague Ability is over powered since I really enjoy playing the Death Knights.

[Lord Garth]

My two cents: I've played the Deathknights but didn't focus much on it's plague aspect. I am mostly indifferent on the issue. Leave it, Scrap it, Nerf it... I don't care. However I do like a good debate.

Respectfully, Uncle Mike's proposed defense against the plague, ie Raise Census spells, building fortifications, bazaars, etc., is no defense at all. It is a wizard consuming, resource consuming, order consuming way to tread water while another kingdom simply posts a brigade in your region. And that stuff is virtually impossible to do anyway in the early stages of the game.

Conversely, this power has a negligible affect on most kingdoms as companions and summoned troops are most often used today. It will, however, have a considerable impact on kingdoms that are dependent on pop center recruitment. An, Ra, No, and many others can be severely compromised as well as anyone who owns Stormgate and wants to recruit there.

There may be cause for a tweak here but again, i don't feel very strongly about it.


This topic was discussed in a Valhalla thread below.

https://kingdomsofarcania.net/forum/show...n=lastpost