Hidden Capitals (Easy To Locate)

[Clueless]

Hey, I just discovered a vulnerability with hidden pc's.

To discover them, you don't need a level 4+ agent doing a single map area recon. Or anything else that's special like the True Seeing or Revelations spell.

I was able to locate a hidden pc simply by moving a level 1 agent to a blind map area! I recruited a bunch of level 1 agents and moved them to empty map locations in enemy territory that is not occupied by a pc or encounter. Eventually, one of my level 1 agents moved to the other kingdom's hidden pc without knowing about it beforehand.

Back in the old days, DuPont (I think his real name was Dave Patterson) used to move a bunch of emissaries to undiscovered map locations early in the game (like turns 1-3) in addition to moving groups to find pc's that much faster. At a time, the game software would say that your emissary could be eaten by a wild animal or something (I don't remember the text or what the percentage chance of being killed), but I haven't encountered that so far with moving agents.

I thought about using low-level emissaries like DuPont to find hidden pc's, but they're more expensive than hiring a level 1 agent and there's a percentage chance that they'll alert the other kingdom of the emissary's relocation. So, I used a bunch of level 1 agents that won't alert the other kingdom and it worked!

Also, by moving the emissary/agent rather than recon the area, any counter-agents won't detect or prevent your action. Counteragents may block and kill your level 4 agent recon, but the counterespionage action has no effect on moving an emissary/agent to the location.

How cool is that!

[davekuyk]

This has been known for some time, but good on you for rediscovering it!

[Alzreborn]

This has been known for some time, but good on you for rediscovering it!

Lol I recently trailed a patrol for 5 turns before it went to the capital
mass Agents other then the cost is effective.

[VballMichael]

History. So, when this was first discovered by a venturesome, innovative fellow (not me), it was discussed and generally discouraged as a rules workaround. In fact, Uncle Mike programmed a penalty into the system that if you moved an emmy or agent to a square with no PC, you had a chance of losing that guy. But that did not work well because people lost emmies with a typo or moving to a square with a destroyed PC. So that penalty was removed. I generally don't do this, as it was originally considered bad form. Having said that, in a recent game where the UN dropped after being beat up a bit, i did use agents to find the hidden town (now human) that used to be his capital and I did not feel guilty about it. No judgment here, just history.

[Alzreborn]

History. So, when this was first discovered by a venturesome, innovative fellow (not me), it was discussed and generally discouraged as a rules workaround. In fact, Uncle Mike programmed a penalty into the system that if you moved an emmy or agent to a square with no PC, you had a chance of losing that guy. But that did not work well because people lost emmies with a typo or moving to a square with a destroyed PC. So that penalty was removed. I generally don't do this, as it was originally considered bad form. Having said that, in a recent game where the UN dropped after being beat up a bit, i did use agents to find the hidden town (now human) that used to be his capital and I did not feel guilty about it. No judgment here, just history.

agree with the comment on bad form.

[Clueless]

History. So, when this was first discovered by a venturesome, innovative fellow (not me), it was discussed and generally discouraged as a rules workaround. In fact, Uncle Mike programmed a penalty into the system that if you moved an emmy or agent to a square with no PC, you had a chance of losing that guy. But that did not work well because people lost emmies with a typo or moving to a square with a destroyed PC. So that penalty was removed. I generally don't do this, as it was originally considered bad form. Having said that, in a recent game where the UN dropped after being beat up a bit, i did use agents to find the hidden town (now human) that used to be his capital and I did not feel guilty about it. No judgment here, just history.

Thanks for the explanation. So, if it's bad practice, why not let the software kill them off as a penalty? If a player makes a mistake moving to an unknown map location, well, it's their fault right? I don't know if we can safely rely on players to not use this cheat in the game. It may be better if the software was reenabled to prevent the practice. Should we vote on it or forget the issue? Any thoughts...

[Strongwill]

About 3-4 years ago this was a huge issue… Players then decided to not do it, however there isn’t any oversight to stop it. I don’t do this anymore because of those discussion we had so long ago. VBall remembers, I think one or two players quit back then and never returned.

There is another glitch that can help find a hidden, but I won’t share or use it..

[davekuyk]

I can't agree that this is a cheat, or bad practice, or whatever. It is simply using the game mechanics as they are laid out.

Another version of this is using an extra order on turn one to move to an empty square in the hopes of hitting a neutral/human PC. Is this also frowned upon?

I can guess at a kingdom's skeleton code. Pretty unlikely to get it, but it is still possible. How about guessing an enemy king's name from previous games? Is the CI king "Conan" again? Maybe my scandal will get him.

You can ward a prisoner to determine if the capital the emissary is in is within the 10 range or not. Is this also frowned upon? It seems pretty odd I can ward a prisoner. I used this to narrow down a hidden capital to within eight possible squares; less once I learned where the non-hidden PCs were.

I can issue attack and defend orders against invisible groups I might guess are there. Bad behavior? Heck, I can have a standing order to do this. That Warlock will never catch me unaware again!

I can move an agent to an enemy PC with a Thieves Guild and train there. Bug? Bad form? Intended behavior and close reading of the rules?

Where do we draw the line?

[Alzreborn]

I can't agree that this is a cheat, or bad practice, or whatever. It is simply using the game mechanics as they are laid out.

Another version of this is using an extra order on turn one to move to an empty square in the hopes of hitting a neutral/human PC. Is this also frowned upon?

I can guess at a kingdom's skeleton code. Pretty unlikely to get it, but it is still possible. How about guessing an enemy king's name from previous games? Is the CI king "Conan" again? Maybe my scandal will get him.

You can ward a prisoner to determine if the capital the emissary is in is within the 10 range or not. Is this also frowned upon? It seems pretty odd I can ward a prisoner. I used this to narrow down a hidden capital to within eight possible squares; less once I learned where the non-hidden PCs were.

I can issue attack and defend orders against invisible groups I might guess are there. Bad behavior? Heck, I can have a standing order to do this. That Warlock will never catch me unaware again!

I can move an agent to an enemy PC with a Thieves Guild and train there. Bug? Bad form? Intended behavior and close reading of the rules?

Where do we draw the line?

I will say this is my opinion for myself, I dont look down on players that use the game as it is.  I used to ambush and then teleport before they fixed that, it was devastating.  I dont want others to feel I am on a soap box here.  Dave lol I did not know half of the things you listed.... sneaky sneaky.

[VballMichael]

lol, wow, i never knew you could train at someone else's thieves guild, open borders and all i guess. that sounds fun. 

and yeah, i also don't judge anything folks do within the programming, it is just that the programming can never be absolutely perfect so we would occasionally agree not to do a specific something in the old days. for instance it is not in the rules to not attack newbies immediately but most veterans will wait at least ten turns before attacking a newbie and even then will offer advice on how to defend even while attacking that newbie.