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**Ry Vor** · 09-09-2016, 05:22 PM

I want to be open to player input on this subject. As I said, its been a bit confusing for me as we've lost a couple Imperators (Lord Thanatos and Morgan Kane come to mind) because they felt the wizard kingdoms were too watered down in 3rd. Meanwhile, its seems the consensus from the active players, and enforced by some recent game results is that the wizard kingdoms are possibly too strong.

I actually thought they might be slightly overpowered when I did The Choosing. Some of that was in 2nd Cycle the Sorcerer and Warlock (in Amberland) did not do well. Despite making some limitations, like mostly eliminating the strategy of having an invulnerable patrol with Power 7 wizards creating havoc, they do seem to be doing quite well. Of course, on the Resurgent map, it helps with the Druid in Oakendell, the Necromancer in the Mists, and the Warlock in the Mountains (fairly protected regions). So that is another consideration: when the next map comes out, new questions on balance also will.

Since the beginning of Alamaze in 1986, the longest discussion has been, which is more important to success: the kingdom, or the player. And Alamaze historically has had no more than a 2 to 1 ratio between the top kingdom and the bottom, whereas most competitors (I know, I know, we don't care about competitors) had over 10 to 1.

So as I type this, I haven't located the kingdom summary in the stunning new Valhalla. But I believe the Dark Elves are in first (despite the protestations of removing a couple traits a couple weeks into 3rd Cycle), and then likely the wizard kingdoms in the north. I also feel the current Red Dragons, at least in the hands of a player like Jumping Fist are quite a handful to deal with. I really would like to see some top players take the Sacred Order - I think they are underrated so far. I think opinions have improved on the Pirates, and the Lizard Men kicked The Tyrant's ass recently. The Amazons sometimes get jumped early but are quite fun. The Dwarves when they can do barrage and siege craft I think are more fun than in 2nd Cycle and can hold their own against most opponents. As well, the Black Dragons in Amberland must use their mobility and in my opinion should be at least in part artifact hunters. The Amazon mobility almost rivals their's though, especially with foreknowledge of The Last Herd of Winged Stallions, so they can travel quickly through mountains and forest. Everyone seems reluctant on the Halflings, but I think they can outdo the Gnomes for gold accumulation in an Alliance or Diplomacy game.

All said, I am contemplating a revision to Dome of Invulnerability, perhaps more like Wall of Flame, possibly adding a couple brigades to the Amazon start, a character or two to the Halflings.

Thoughts?

**Tomag Ironfist** · 09-09-2016, 05:47 PM

I think these changes would be nice. Do you anticipate making any changes to the CI?

**Titus** · 09-09-2016, 05:58 PM

i have not yet played those kingdoms. I like dome but perhaps a couple of artifacts that can dispel dome or perhaps a warlord can dispel dome to keep the game fair. Also I think the DW and CI should have an immunity to death spells as they have no possible way to counter the spell or at least improved invulnerability say where the spell has a 75% failure rate.

**Jumpingfist** · 09-09-2016, 06:14 PM

for spell lists. The kingdoms get specific spells earlier than others but the lists are not the same. The wizard kingdoms not only get a huge price break on magic research but also are using spells list where nearly every spell already starts at a lower level than that of most other kingdoms. Perhaps makes it basically one over all spell list with some special kingdom specific spells being 1 level sooner, but also there should be some spells a level harder. Lich for example should be a base level 8 spell. with perhaps only the SO and Necromancer getting it at level 7.
mage kingdoms already start with more wizards and higher level ones isn't that already giving them the advantage.
Wizard kingdoms spend the same gold to recruit all types of bridges as military kingdoms with exactly the same limits. Many wizard kingdoms can actually recruit more types of brigades (champions) not counting summon brigades than those of the non magical type kingdoms. This seems inherently unbalanced as it does not allow the other kingdoms to compete even with militaries.

Some spells I think should be relooked at
_Dome - not to powerful just need a way to neutralize/ counter
_ summon death. _ has always been to powerful. _ due to only being able to recruit 3 champions a turn killing 2-4 is likely to many with a single spell. I would say reduce the number by 1 across the board and also allow dispell magic to counter it. Also make the -15% moral only 1 time per turn i.e. This part does not stack. Also maybe make it work only on creatures turn undead does not work on.

_this may seem not to make wizards weaker but will help from the just build to level 7 and make liches
_ add spells past level 7. Like the stronger spells UM had made before. Improved versions of summon death that give great moral loss and perhaps kill more units, but also do not stack. Or maybe can stack once with summon death. The idea is make it worthwhile to bring wizards past level 7.

**Jumpingfist** · 09-09-2016, 06:19 PM

both kingdoms in region 5 need help. I have not played the CI but seeing how they are played so rarely and then Dropped often. Not in Valhalla a good gage would be to look at which kingdoms are dropped most often these I think likely need help.

**Atuan** · 09-09-2016, 06:42 PM

On the HA front, their special order (Order #512) for agent 7s or p3 etc... this order is basically useless. And as so probably should just be taken away and give the kingdom the trait Spy Network. I would say give them secretive as well. For an agent kingdom they really dont get the benefits of an agent kingdom at all. When your highest starting agent is a 3 sorry but you are not a threat. Your military is in the same other 2 agent kingdoms.. IE piss poor, and you can recruit 10 special brigades total all in the forest.

Your mages are not bottom barrel but pretty close as you cap at lvl 3. Summoning brigades won't be happening with this fine kingdom as you will need a p6 to get skeletons.

Then there is the huge military kingdom that basically generally starts in your back yard.

Yes you get gold. But honestly what do you spend it on? not mages, and the agent cost is cheap.

The HA needs more than just a character or two. Heck even the foreboding trait is bad. You put 2 artifacts(ring of invis) so far away from them they will never walk or port to it. They have to hope that in the 4 turns it takes to get there someone else hasn't first.

As to the wizard kingdoms. They are over powered but except the IL, which is due to the dispersed kingdom being able to hop on them fast before they grow. So whatever you do to slow them down, don't let it have the same impact to the IL as it does to the DU/SO/WA/NE.

**Hawk_** · 09-09-2016, 07:48 PM

I think the wizard kingdoms are benefiting from improved starting locations (mainly that the WA and SO used to share regions) as well as the addition of their starting power 4's. Their magic research costs are more attractive and once they get established they can use multiple Domes and Summon Death to defeat any military attack.

This is in addition to being able to manipulate regional reactions, create famine, summon meteor storms, and teleport all over the map and what about spells like Demonic Visions?!? Plus most of the lists are better than they were in the past.

The SO and WA even have hidden capitols and some nice troop recruitment options.

Once a 3rd Cycle wizard kingdom has a few power 6-7 wizards they are the strongest positions in the game, IMO. In the past it was difficult to achieve this. Now that does not seem to be the case.

I think the wizard kingdoms were powerful in 2nd Cycle also but just got defeated early in many games because kingdom design slowed their development. The Witchlord was strong but their magic research cost was higher and they often faced an early attack by the RD or GI. The Necromancer does not face these problems.

I think the wizard kingoms also have an advantage in obtaining artifacts because they can access the higher point artifacts easier and teleport around the map for the quest artifacts. This translates into more status points.

I'm not sure how to balance it. I like that High Priestesses can BLESS. I think they might need access to other defensive spells to offset regional spells.

Alternatively development could be more difficult for wizard kingdoms with higher magic research costs. Maybe limit only one master wizard over power 5 per group.

**Frost Lord** · 09-09-2016, 10:51 PM

One big thing I notice is the brigade counts.

Looking at the Player Stats Report (the summary of all players - page 1), the kingdom that has ended the game fielding the largest army (with the most brigades) is the NE. This is followed by DE, DU, IL, WA, NO, RA, and SO.

So, 4 of the top 5 largest armies (and 5 of the top 8) have been fielded by Wizard kingdoms (and the DE kingdom, in 2nd place, has Demon Princes that can effectively recruit skeletons like weak wizards + the standard PC and Companion recruitments).

This is true when you look at the average for all games....The NE and the DU both typically end the game with at least 10 more brigades than the RD on average.

------------------------

I am not advocating that we ONLY nerf the Wizard kingdoms... You could look at it from another angle and boost the non-magic kingdoms so they can field larger armies... Or a little of both. I am not sure which way to go....that is not my forte. :-)

**Frost Lord** · 09-09-2016, 11:11 PM

(09-09-2016, 05:22 PM)Ry Vor Wrote: I want to be open to player input on this subject. As I said, its been a bit confusing for me as we've lost a couple Imperators (Lord Thanatos and Morgan Kane come to mind) because they felt the wizard kingdoms were too watered down in 3rd. Meanwhile, its seems the consensus from the active players, and enforced by some recent game results is that the wizard kingdoms are possibly too strong.

I actually thought they might be slightly overpowered when I did The Choosing. Some of that was in 2nd Cycle the Sorcerer and Warlock (in Amberland) did not do well. Despite making some limitations, like mostly eliminating the strategy of having an invulnerable patrol with Power 7 wizards creating havoc, they do seem to be doing quite well. Of course, on the Resurgent map, it helps with the Druid in Oakendell, the Necromancer in the Mists, and the Warlock in the Mountains (fairly protected regions). So that is another consideration: when the next map comes out, new questions on balance also will.

Since the beginning of Alamaze in 1986, the longest discussion has been, which is more important to success: the kingdom, or the player. And Alamaze historically has had no more than a 2 to 1 ratio between the top kingdom and the bottom, whereas most competitors (I know, I know, we don't care about competitors) had over 10 to 1.

So as I type this, I haven't located the kingdom summary in the stunning new Valhalla. But I believe the Dark Elves are in first (despite the protestations of removing a couple traits a couple weeks into 3rd Cycle), and then likely the wizard kingdoms in the north. I also feel the current Red Dragons, at least in the hands of a player like Jumping Fist are quite a handful to deal with. I really would like to see some top players take the Sacred Order - I think they are underrated so far. I think opinions have improved on the Pirates, and the Lizard Men kicked The Tyrant's ass recently. The Amazons sometimes get jumped early but are quite fun. The Dwarves when they can do barrage and siege craft I think are more fun than in 2nd Cycle and can hold their own against most opponents. As well, the Black Dragons in Amberland must use their mobility and in my opinion should be at least in part artifact hunters. The Amazon mobility almost rivals their's though, especially with foreknowledge of The Last Herd of Winged Stallions, so they can travel quickly through mountains and forest. Everyone seems reluctant on the Halflings, but I think they can outdo the Gnomes for gold accumulation in an Alliance or Diplomacy game.

All said, I am contemplating a revision to Dome of Invulnerability, perhaps more like Wall of Flame, possibly adding a couple brigades to the Amazon start, a character or two to the Halflings.

Thoughts?

Kingdom Reports start on page 19 (thru page 24) of the main Valhalla file.

By total Status Points accumulated, 5 of the top 8 kingdoms are Wizard kingdoms. And the SO has only played in 5 of the 9 completed Classic games.

1 - Necromancer ......128,287
2 - Pirates ................93,620
3 - Druid ..................80,876
4 - Warlock ..............78,831
5 - Dark Elves ..........78,785
6 - Sorcerer .............68,550
7 - Demon Princes ...64,966
8 - Illusionist ...........55,509

**unclemike** · 09-10-2016, 12:08 AM

Yes but to be fair, the number of times that a wizard kingdom is selected over others should also be considered and not just their status points/Valhalla rankings. On page 20 of the Valhalla report, it shows:

Region 1: DU played 7 games, EL only 2
Region 2: NE played 8 games, CI only 1
Region 3: WA played 8 games, DW only 1
Region 4: SO played 5 games, AM played 4 (closest comparison than the others)
Region 8: IL played 6 games, RA only 3

So you can say that the NE is overpowered if based on status points/rankings but that opinion is skewered. What I would like to see is another 20 kingdom Slugfest game but this time around, have players play a kingdom in a different region. So not the same person plays both kingdoms in the same region. Then we'll find out just how unstoppable the Necromancer is if the Cimmerians are knocking on their door on turn 1.