Game 5031 Full Diplomacy

[JonDoe]

I have been reading this thread, and am I understanding that UM  wins every game he is in?  And if you play long enough could not everyone kinda know where certain things might be?  So maybe everyone would have the same advantage if they play long enough?  Just curious?

PC are fully random.   There are very few exception that some kingdoms start with PCs in a specific terrain (not he ) but even that is much less than it once was in 2nd cycle.  Long gone are the days where a capital would be in say 1 of 3 squares or always in the mountains of amberland.

[unclemike]

Hey, I don't know where pc's are more than anyone else. The problem is that Druid kingdom is very strong for exploring the map. Druids get Eagle Familiar at 2nd level. Yes, that makes it extremely easy to search the entire region with 7 p2 wizards that costs very little to develop. Combine that effort with four groups that have favored movement rates in plains/forest (guess what terrain is in Oakendell) and two L4 agents which was what I used in that game. You'll explore the entire region in a turn or two as well. Does the Druid's capabilities give me an advantage compared to others in the game, it sure does! Try playing the Druid and you'll see for yourself how easy it is to explore the map. I think I explored half of Oakendell in a single turn! My advice is to try the Druid then bitch about it later...

[unclemike]

In the same game he shows up on a secondary pc in Torvale on T5.  No way to to have reconned for the pc, again preknowledge, or EXPLOIT.  He was playing the DU, the Torvale pc was the UN.

Well, you're not being very fair to me about this. You need to inform everyone that your pc in Torvale was at area JF which is very close to Oakendell's border. In fact, I discovered it not by agent or eagle but rather just by moving my group. Look at the map and see for yourself. No cheating, no exploit, just simple group movement. 

About warding emissaries at a city on turn 2, hasn't anyone ever done that before? That's a common action to take in an anonymous/silent game. Again, not paranoia, just common sense. [Hey, how do you know that I warded my guy at Lorethane anyway? The only way that you would know is if you tried to sleep him!]

About why I was exploring on/around the border, hasn't anyone ever searched for pcs/artifacts outside their controlled region before? In an anonymous/silent game, a player should consider "weakening" their opponents in neighboring regions by collecting artifacts in their regions first then searching for encounters in your own region later. I thought that was a common practice. I've done this tactic several times and it hopefully weakened my neighbors who may invade my region later in the game. I would then search for artifacts in my own region at my leisure. If that thought never occurred to you as a player, you may want to consider it...

[Ohman the heartless]

Like I stated earlier, I am not accussing UM of cheating!!!. But as a PAYING customer, I still will not waste MY $ in a game where the PROGRAMER is playing. MY CHOICE! Way too much home field advantage.

And, I still think his data base knowledge is an EXPLOIT.

[IMPERIAL_TARK]

I'm a bit saddened at the fallout from this game. I'm receiving several e-mails from other players indicating huge amounts of frustration and accusations such that they are dropping this game (and/or Alamaze). Some of this has been vented here on this Forum. I do believe that when Rick or UM play, they have a fairly huge advantage in knowledge of the intricacies/nuances within the game programming, orders, spells, tactics, combat equations, etc. that the rest of the player base simply does not have full access to, though this is a normal function of being privy to the game design.

On the other hand, I certainly want Rick and UM to be able to play in the Alamaze games since they are responsible for the game and without being continually plagued with accusations of cheating and player fall out (e.g., I'll never play in a game with X again). So I offer a potential diplomatic solution in an effort to keep the peace and player base and offer a learning tool for all players at the same time.

I would recommend that whenever Rick or UM play in a game, that when that game ends (starting with this game 5031), they post all of their Turns to the Forum for all to see. This would accomplish several goals in my opinion: 1) players could see that they followed the game rules like all other players and there was nothing "different/special" about their orders nor any exploits utilized, 2) players (especially newer ones) would learn some of the combat strategy/tactics and kingdom-building methods that these two gaming veterans employ when playing different kingdoms, and 3) players would no doubt be exposed to some creative uses of spells, order combinations, brigade utilization, etc. that could shed better understanding of the nuances of the game code without actually revealing the "mystery" of said code.

In short, it would be both a great learning tool for the entire player base, and allow the game designers to play in a more open but less accusatory manner.

[unclemike]

How will posting our turns on the forum solve the current situation of order execution with pc attacks?

Neither Rick nor I have any control of the random execution of orders. I could post my turn online but that won't accomplish anything regarding this matter. The real issue here is that the RD player didn't create a sanctuary for himself which would have prevented him from being eliminated from the game. Just some simple planning of creating a sanctuary would have prevented his sore feelings from occurring due to being forced out of the game (and the resultant tongue lashing).

Or what about the complaint of me warding my emissary on turn 2 at Lorethane? Really? Complaining that I warded my emissary? Am I no longer able to do that as well?

Instead, how about if I just quit the two games that I'm playing in and wait for a more mature crowd...

[JonDoe]

you guys are effectively saying he looks at others orders before entering his. So showing turns would do nothing. In case everyone has not noticed UM only plays maybe 2 games at a time. He plays for free, so only even has time to get orders in for 2 games. I really do not think he would waste his time trying to wait for others to get turns in. Based on how he programs alamaze most likely he has his orders in before most everyone.
I can say for sure having played UM before he ever took over programming the game he was/is already one of the most skilled players. The best I have seen at managing limited resources.

Instead of complaining enjoy watching him work even when he is fighting you. Learn how to take a city down with just a division. See what he does to expand so quickly. Half the time he says what and how he did something even as the game is going on.

[IMPERIAL_TARK]

How will posting our turns on the forum solve the current situation of order execution with pc attacks?

Neither Rick nor I have any control of the random execution of orders. I could post my turn online but that won't accomplish anything regarding this matter. The real issue here is that the RD player didn't create a sanctuary for himself which would have prevented him from being eliminated from the game. Just some simple planning of creating a sanctuary would have prevented his sore feelings from occurring due to being forced out of the game (and the resultant tongue lashing).

Or what about the complaint of me warding my emissary on turn 2 at Lorethane? Really? Complaining that I warded my emissary? Am I no longer able to do that as well?

Instead, how about if I just quit the two games that I'm playing in and wait for a more mature crowd...

There are other complaints/concerns besides the ones being posted on the Forum. Some players don't feel comfortable posting their issues when it involves Rick or UM and instead e-mail veteran players to complain for fear of retaliation.

The open posting of the turns would help alleviate some of those complaints since they would be able to see the orders themselves, especially a natural progression like re-conning targets before a region invasion. I fail to see what harm there would be in posting the turns, if it changes even one player's mind to the positive, especially if there's nothing to hide. Furthermore, irrespective of that point, my latter two points are still valid... it helps the player base learn other techniques, methods, order combinations, builds, etc. How is that not a good thing?

[IMPERIAL_TARK]

you guys are effectively saying he looks at others orders before entering his.   So showing turns would do nothing.   In case everyone has not noticed UM only plays maybe 2 games at a time.  He plays for free, so only even has time to get orders in for 2 games.  I really do not think he would waste his time trying to wait for others to get turns in.   Based on how he programs alamaze most likely he has his orders in before most everyone.  
I can say for sure having played UM before he ever took over programming the game he was/is already one of the most skilled players.  The best I have seen at managing limited resources.

Instead of complaining enjoy watching him work even when he is fighting you.   Learn how to take a city down with just a division.   See what he does to expand so quickly.   Half the time he says what and how he did something even as the game is going on.

Given that Rick and UM play so little and given how you point out how great UM is, why not let others see his turns so they can see how "great" his strategy is especially since not everyone will get to play in games with him or play against him because they are not near one another. They can thus "see" how to take down a city with a division through vicarious learning. The display of his turns to ALL players would teach everyone, helping to level the playing field between veteran and newbie, especially. Again, I fail to see the harm in showing the turns when players will learn better.
For that matter you could make ALL players' turns available when a game is over.

Our entire K-12 and college education systems is built on experts sharing their knowledge and experience with others. Why should Alamaze not follow suit? It could greatly improve the learning curve for newbies and attract new players if they can view veteran turns with their different strategies?

Again how is this NOT a good thing?

[Ohman the heartless]

I agree the RD made a critical error in not creating a sanctuary. My concern is the knowledge one player has over the rest of the other players. I never questioned and DO NOT question UM's integrity. He just has an extreme advantage due to his knowledge of the %'s and possible outcomes of all facets of the game. I agree with J DOE, about the possibility of turn sharing of UM's strategies. Unfortumately, I feel that would defeat his enjoyment of playing the game if this were done while a game was in progress, and I really can't see many players reviewing his play after the fact. We have players that struggle now to make turn deadlines.
I am retired so would review his game turns, but if I did and someone else did not have the same time as I to review them, then I would or anyone having reviewed them would also become a problem for other players.