Game 5644 Maximumus Dominus begins…

[unclemike]

If your kingdom runs out of gold, can you go bankrupt? or will the game just not let you spend your kingdom out of existence?

If someone responded to this and I missed their answer, my apologies upfront.

However, can someone answer it, just the same?

If your kingdom gold treasury is zero balance, you don't go bankrupt but rather you will be limited in what you may do for that turn.

You may generate gold income by a number of ways: population center ownership (city, town, village), wizards casting the create gold spell, agents stealing gold from another population center, or military groups conquering population centers (since all battles from groups occur at the beginning of the turn, that gold may be spent that turn than waiting until the following turn).

Sure, taxing a population center may give you gold but it pops it neutral so you'll have to reclaim it once again. Not a popular way to generate gold btw.

If you're lazy and don't want to move groups to conquer population centers, then you may increase gold production at your capital by order #600 and have your wizards cast the Hidden Ore spell. Both of those will increase the gold production of the pop center in the long run if you think that you can hold onto that population center (like your capital, the most important one!).

But you need to plan ahead for order #600 and the hidden ore spell (check your kingdom setup at what level your wizards get that spell) because both require gold expense. Again, Alamaze is all about the planning and strategy in how you govern your kingdom.

[unclemike]

IMPRESSION

The more dire that kingdom's situation is, the more that the player needs to be able to make robust use of their assets.

Since numerous orders are tied to availability of gold, players can be precluded from using certain of their characters during times when they are needed the most.

This is ENORMOUSLY demoralizing to a player who desperately searches for ways out of their predicament, be it of the self-inflicted variety or otherwise.

Well, that's because you are somewhat refusing to the play the game that it is meant to be played. Alamaze is a game of conquest, you need to go forth and conquer. You're not doing that...

Using your groups to conquer population centers will increase your gold and food production.

Using your emissaries to usurp population centers is another, and for the most part, easier way to gain population centers. The Forgotten kingdom is at a disadvantage in that regard, but it is still available as an option.

Losing your population centers and having no gold to spend is demoralizing, but it's not the end. You still have troops that may conquer stuff. You still have emissaries to usurp pop centers. If you prefer the former (using groups than emissaries since you have a background in Hyborian War), then you may also sell influence (it's a king order) that reduces your influence by 1 for an extra 10,000 gold. Not a popular means of attaining gold, but one that exists for dire circumstances. I've done it a few times to pump up one of my wizards to a higher level in order to gain a valuable spell (e.g., Dome of Invulnerability to prevent an attack on my capital).

Again, Alamaze is all about the planning and strategy. If you go about issuing random orders just to try out the game, that's fine, however, you're going to fall behind. Rick used to have a special title for players who hang tough to the end, no matter how bad their position became. I believe it was called, Iron Willed, or something. If you want to be known as a hard-ass, tough-fighting, S.O.B., then give them hell and hang in there till the end Dominus...

[unclemike]

IMPRESSION

The Verify Orders button becomes increasingly important, as the game progresses. I pay far more attention to it, now, than at the beginning of this game.

Hallelujah!

[RELLGAR]

IMPRESSION

The position and shape that my kingdom is in, now, is far more interesting than when I started the kingdom off in much better shape.

I'm rather infamous for sticking around long after my kingdom it totaled because I actually really love Alamaze as guerilla war. You can't stop the bigger kingdom that stomped you, but you can sure annoy the F out of them.

This is good nutshell advice. Thanks for the reminder about The Forgotten being at disadvantage with using emissaries in the first place. New players will almost always be in need of reminders.
A group that is 7k or higher what? In terms of attack value/power, you mean?

Yes, 7k or higher in attack value vs PC. You can do it a bit lower, but 7k is a good rule of thumb if you don't want to lose too many troops.

I love sticking around and being a nuisance to those who stopped me from winning. I've even prevented there wins a time or two.

[Brekk]

Are you using your mentor, Relgar?

Sometimes.

No doubt he can be a major help.  If you are short of orders standing orders can help like raise gold or food for your wizards.

I do use wizards to raise gold, sometimes. Some of my wizards disappeared, previously, including my best one, so my ability to raise gold is less than perhaps it should be. Plus, there's not really a surplus of gold to spend on training low level wizards to higher levels. That's a cost prohibitive practice, unless one has a good supply of gold.

Can you attack a village at 2-1 odds or better?

Probably, but with only one group, I think.

Don't let an adept or p1 wizard fight or you will likely lose them.  Transfer them out or go invisible.

It's a little late for that. I guess when the Lizard Queen attacked me, a couple of my wizards died or got captured. From the looks of it, The Forgotten's strength isn't troops, emissaries, or wizards.

Thus far, the game seems to be more about gold than about fantasy.

[Brekk]

I'm rather infamous for sticking around long after my kingdom it totaled because I actually really love Alamaze as guerilla war. You can't stop the bigger kingdom that stomped you, but you can sure annoy the F out of them.

What is some of your bets advice for fighting a guerilla war in Alamaze?

Yes, 7k or higher in attack value vs PC. You can do it a bit lower, but 7k is a good rule of thumb if you don't want to lose too many troops.

Thanks for that tidbit.

[Brekk]

If your kingdom gold treasury is zero balance, you don't go bankrupt but rather you will be limited in what you may do for that turn.

My interest in whether a kingdom could go bankrupt goes back to my distant memories of Fall of Rome. Something inside of me wants to say that you could bankrupt a kingdom in that game, way back when. I could be remembering wrong, though.

You may generate gold income by a number of ways: population center ownership (city, town, village), wizards casting the create gold spell, agents stealing gold from another population center, or military groups conquering population centers (since all battles from groups occur at the beginning of the turn, that gold may be spent that turn than waiting until the following turn).

Well, so far this game, I've already did all of those.

Sure, taxing a population center may give you gold but it pops it neutral so you'll have to reclaim it once again. Not a popular way to generate gold btw.

Understood, and I certainly agree. Disaster tends to make strong and memorable impressions.

If you're lazy and don't want to move groups to conquer population centers, then you may increase gold production at your capital by order #600 and have your wizards cast the Hidden Ore spell. Both of those will increase the gold production of the pop center in the long run if you think that you can hold onto that population center (like your capital, the most important one!).

Perhaps it has nothing to do with laziness, in light of the fact that I've moved groups around and searched for pop centers, already. I also did a parley successfully, if memory serves me correctly. The current game interface is more clunky than what I grew used to with the Fall of Rome interface. It's not as polished. Or maybe it is just laziness that's to blame. If so, then I should probably just cut my losses and save my time, and save my breath and my effort. That would be the lazy thing to do, right?

But you need to plan ahead for order #600 and the hidden ore spell (check your kingdom setup at what level your wizards get that spell) because both require gold expense. Again, Alamaze is all about the planning and strategy in how you govern your kingdom.

Hidden Ore is a Level 3 spell for The Forgotten.

I went back in to double check, just now, and my highest level wizard is 2. So, the #603 order isn't available as an option.

Raising the level of the wizard from 2 to 3 isn't an option, as that exceeds the amount of gold that I'll have, and this includes issuing an order for the King to sell influence.

I understand that Alamaze is about planning and strategy, but it is also about gold, gold, and more gold. Once a kingdom finds itself in dire straits on the gold front, it's viable options for planning and strategy diminish sharply. This chosen approach facilitates players losing hope, and will send kingdoms into a death spiral. Chants of "all about the planning and strategy" aren't likely gonna impress new players who lose hope. Experience is its own advantage, and new players will play around with options at their disposal, for better or for worse.

[Brekk]

Well, that's because you are somewhat refusing to the play the game that it is meant to be played.

I'm not simply playing the game. That's not why I'm here, right now, not to just play the game. That's not even my highest priority.

As I go about doing other things, I decided to give the game a try. Rick had created an account for me many years ago, and I happened to remember it.

As for playing the game "that it is meant to be played," on and off, I've played Hyborian War since around 1987 or so, and I've played it "my way" the entire time. My way, in fact, is one of the ways that distinguish me as a player in that game. I don't tend to adhere to standard orthodoxy. I don't operate on any assumption that there's only one way to play Alamaze, and neither do I assume that the touted orthodoxy is necessarily the best way to play Alamaze.

Alamaze is a game of conquest, you need to go forth and conquer. You're not doing that...

You might be right. That's not exactly the first impression or the strongest impression that I've had about the game, so far. I'm no Alamaze expert, though. I'm just a new player still early in his first game of 4th Cycle Maelstrom multiplayer Alamaze. Perhaps others here have long since grown accustomed to what I would describe as some of the drudgery associated with the game. Being still early in the process of just my first multiplayer game of Alamaze, though, I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with the game, as of yet. Maybe some of the things about the game's design that I'm not particularly enamored with will eventually grow on me. That requires time and patience, though.

Using your groups to conquer population centers will increase your gold and food production.

Yes, just like in Fall of Rome.

Using your emissaries to usurp population centers is another, and for the most part, easier way to gain population centers. The Forgotten kingdom is at a disadvantage in that regard, but it is still available as an option.

Indeed, it is. Emissaries in this game, thus far, have proven themselves to be dependably undependable.

Losing your population centers and having no gold to spend is demoralizing, but it's not the end.

No, it's not. Of course, once new players get behind in a game that they lack familiarity with, it isn't uncommon for them to bail on a game - which can negatively impact the "balance" of a game in progress.

You still have troops that may conquer stuff. You still have emissaries to usurp pop centers.

Of course, I have to move them there, first. What's already there has already proven itself to be masters of the incapable.

If you prefer the former (using groups than emissaries since you have a background in Hyborian War),

There are no population centers to usurp or conquer in Hyborian War. It utilizes a province-based system of territorial control, and there is no way for characters to usurp control of provinces. Control of provinces in Hyborian War only change hands as a result of either Set Piece or Open Field battles. And in Hyborian War, you can always issue commands to all of your characters, regardless of your kingdom's wealth or poverty.

then you may also sell influence (it's a king order) that reduces your influence by 1 for an extra 10,000 gold.

I was already aware of the Sell Influence order, as I had already issued it for my king on my next set of turn orders, earlier today.

Not a popular means of attaining gold, but one that exists for dire circumstances. I've done it a few times to pump up one of my wizards to a higher level in order to gain a valuable spell (e.g., Dome of Invulnerability to prevent an attack on my capital).

Wizards in this game of Alamaze really don't seem to be a viable route for me, anymore. It's very expensive to raise the level of wizards to higher levels. It may well be the most expensive process in the entire game, in fact. If not, it sure seems that way to me, right now.

Again, Alamaze is all about the planning and strategy.

That may be a favored tagline around this place, but so far, it sure seems like it's about gold more than anything else, if the first eight turns are any kind of an indicator, at all. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, though.

If you go about issuing random orders just to try out the game, that's fine, however, you're going to fall behind.

Well, you may perceive the orders that I issue to be random, but I'm not inclined to follow a scripted path. Plus, I've got to learn, and in my considered experience in life, it's helpful to learn something new in such a way as to foster the retention of what one learns into memory. I'm not you, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that my approach may not be your approach. If your approach works for you, hey, use it! I'm fairly confident that I can find my own way. It's not as though Alamaze is the first multiplayer turn based game that I've ever played before.

Rick used to have a special title for players who hang tough to the end, no matter how bad their position became. I believe it was called, Iron Willed, or something. If you want to be known as a hard-ass, tough-fighting, S.O.B., then give them hell and hang in there till the end Dominus...

I doubt that many newcomers to Alamaze master the game on their first game. There's things about Alamaze that I like, and likewise, there are things about Alamaze that I don't like. Thus far, it has proven itself to be a mixed bag to me.

That said, I am trying to do more than one thing simultaneously, and mastering the game is currently the lowest priority out of all of them.

You want me to follow a path, a particular path, to do things a particular way. I actually have more confidence in the underlying design and in the complexity of the design of the game than to persuade myself at this early stage that one has to do things the unclemike way.

I am ever cognizant of the fact that the game's programmer of several years time working to fix and to improve things is a large storehouse of game knowledge. You know how things work and connect with one another. You offer up what you believe to be fundamentally sound advice. If my only consideration, or perhaps even just my primary consideration, was to learn and to master the game's many fine points as rapidly as possible, then perhaps I might then choose from a red pill or a blue pill approach to playing my first multiplayer game of Alamaze 4th Cycle Maelstrom.

I think that I was in my second solo tutorial game, when I was invited and encouraged to join this multiplayer game of Alamaze. I do know, already, that I'm likely to never go back to that boring tutorial, whether I ever learn the game or not. For upwards of thirty years - three decades - I have played Hyborian War (on and off) with my objective being to not win, but to have fun. It is fun, and not mastery, which is the better path to longevity within a game of this nature.

From my perspective based upon a very limited sub-set of experience, to date, Alamaze isn't designed for new players. It's geared more towards experienced players. Experienced players, after all, were a driving force in many of the changes that were programmed into the game, were they not? In the absence of a large population of new players, this actually makes sense. My understanding, though, is that there is a collective desire to grow the overall size of the Alamaze player base. And that, I think, makes it worthwhile for somebody to try to bring a fresh set of eyes upon a lot of different things.

I'm not here to undermine what progress has been made. I'm not even here to tell anyone what to do about anything, at all. I don't want Alamaze to die. I don't want it to fall by the wayside. I want it to thrive, and I want it to prosper, and just like all of you, I don't have all of the answers. By the time that all is said and done, it may turn out to be the case that I don't have any of the answers.

For a number of years, I stepped away from fall of Rome, Centurion, and Alamaze. In that span of time, the overall player base went up and down, and ended up where it presently is. Not one, but two different attempts to communicate directly, through e-mail and on-forum messaging, with the bulk of the former players yielded an abundance of silence. Diws quickly responded. Most everyone else did not. And that, to me, is a very strong indicator that in order to grow the Alamaze player base significantly, the focus upon persuading and acquiring new players is going to require the bulk of whatever forthcoming focus there will be, assuming that there is to be any, at all.

If my perception that Alamaze isn't really designed for new players is accurate, then the question begs to be asked: How do you successfully persuade large numbers of new players to play - and to stick with - a game that isn't really designed for new players? That, to me, is a potential red flag.

I try to analyze what I encounter, and I strive to be objective in my analysis and in my approach to analysis. I don't try consciously give a free pass to any aspect or element of the design, implementation, or interface. I think that most everyone could probably agree that the create player account/create forum user account process could be streamlined and made quicker, easier, and more efficient - thereby, becoming less likely to scare new people off.

One thing, one change, one fix will not prove to be a panacea. Are there better ways to showcase Alamaze? I think so, and I suspect that anyone that has ever come into contact with it would be inclined to think so, also. Regardless of what all has been tried, and regardless of whatever efforts have been made, and whatever time and resources have been sunk into it over a span of years, clearly, it hasn't proven sufficient. The challenge(s), thus, are bigger than initially imagined, and in spite of the best efforts, to date, Alamaze has resisted growing by leaps and bounds. Yet, you have what appears to be somewhere between two and three dozen players who really like what they have found and encountered and played, and in some cases, for years on end. So, clearly, Alamaze does some things right. There are successes scattered in amongst the failures. but there are failures. Not everything worked. There's no shame in it. The ship of state is listing, though. It needs to be righted.

And that, I think, requires a collective effort. It does not, however, require me to "follow the script" on how to play Alamaze.

[uncledarkside2]

GI-all
Looking for a trading buddy for the summer months coming up.

[unclemike]

For visitors to our site, please do not take Maximus' comments as the golden rule of playing Alamaze.

Every kingdom in Alamaze starts with an ample amount of gold to perform actions in the early part of the game. For the Forgotten kingdom, Maximus started with 100,000 gold (see the attachment) which is plenty to do all kinds of actions in the game.

For example, starting the game with 100,000 gold is ample enough to develop one or more wizards for them to magically create gold themselves. Having wizards that magically create gold helps augment the kingdom's gold production every turn.

However, the Forgotten kingdom is not a magically inclined kingdom so you won't get as much bang-for-the-buck going that route. Alamaze does have favorable kingdoms for wizard development: Sorcerer, Necromancer, Fairy Folk, etc. to name a few. If you raise your wizards for one of those kingdoms, you'll attain access to better and more powerful spells with each level compared to a military-style kingdom like the Forgotten.

When I mentioned above that if a player is "lazy" and doesn't wish to move their groups around to conquer things, that's ok, Alamaze offers kingdoms for that particular playing style as well. Try out the Underworld, which are masters of the covert using thieves and agents for various missions. Or, try out the Ancient Ones or Demon Princes kingdoms, they are more politically motivated rather than having strong militaries to conquer stuff. My point is that Alamaze offers various kingdoms to fit any type of playing style that is desired.

As for the approach of totally ignoring all attempts to learn the game (e.g., not referencing the rulebook, not pressing the Verify Orders button when filing out one's orders, etc.), well, that probably won't take you far in any game, not just Alamaze. It was mentioned in this thread or elsewhere that Chess was learned by one's sister, but I guarantee, either your sister read the rules or she learned from someone who did. That's true for any game.

Maximus, I would appreciate it if you would please refrain from saying, "Uncle Mike's way of doing things". That is not accurate and does not represent what several of us are trying to convey to you in how to learn and enjoy the game. Following instructions is important, not only to do well in any game, but also to have some sense of what is going on within the game and what to do.

So, I would appreciate if you refrained from saying "Uncle Mike's way" any further since it conveys the wrong impression and is not accurate. So far on this forum, by myself and other players, we've tried to explain the conventional way of playing Alamaze. It is not the only way, but perhaps, may be the best way of understanding and learning the game.

For visitors to our site, if a particular kingdom does not match your playing style, try another which may be more appropriate for you. As for my personal taste, I prefer the wizard kingdoms because Alamaze's magical system is what sets it apart from all other PBM games. I think only "You Rule!" came close to Alamaze's expansive magical system. That was back in the 80's/90's. Since then, we've enhanced Alamaze's magical system by a fairly large amount, with new spells and effects than the original version of the game offered decades ago.