Brigade comparisons

[Olorin]

Hi all,

When changing the strength of a brigade (either up or down) perhaps the resource consumption and/or the recruiting costs should be adjusted as well.

R

Fair point.  And we are indeed going to be going over that as well.  To decide those fairly we need to know final values the brigades are going to have.  Also Reinforcement schedule and Companion lists need going over as well.

We are doing a couple of things here, in this thread and Brekk's Troop Changes:
As it stands a lot of this is just letting folks know where the brigades really are instead of what is posted.  Which is the middle, Actual, rating.

Then trying to update and balance them with our proposal for fixing the various problems that have cropped up.  Our Proposed, which is the third rating.

The aim, at the end of all this, is to have a more balanced game where any Kingdom could win.  Where the game is balanced more on skill and luck, and less on picking the stronger Kingdom at the start.

Seriously, Thank you for the feedback, though.  It never hurts to remind us of something we may have overlooked or point out us screwing up.  We cannot improve the game if we do not know where a problem is.

[Pine Needle]

---

Iron Golem [1]:
Ultimate fighting machine!  Just rolls right over you and breathes! So, no LR or SR. You just do not want it anywhere near you. One of the things I notice is a lot of the ranged attacks are accurate even when the others are not.  I figure when he adjusted the ranged that he reworked a lot of them.  This is another where a very good Brigade got pushed up.

Our thoughts was the LR and SR were not likely, it seemed like the extras would be due to the breath but that was covered under the specials and were not required.  Pulling those, we added to the areas it was not already Ultimate.  And then let you know it was severely understated in ratings.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Absent
SR:Excellent, Excellent --- Absent
CH:Ultimate, Renowned --- Awesome
M1:Good, Awesome --- Ultimate
M2:Good, Ultimate --- Ultimate
CO:Excellent, Ultimate --- Ultimate
DE:Superior, Ultimate --- Ultimate
ST:Renowned, Ultimate --- Ultimate

I always found their defense suspect taking twice or more percent damage than other brigades I had (can't remember the kingdom- probably a wizard). Maybe something else was doing that, as the actual DE was ultimate. Curious.

[Olorin]

---

Iron Golem [1]:
Ultimate fighting machine!  Just rolls right over you and breathes! So, no LR or SR. You just do not want it anywhere near you. One of the things I notice is a lot of the ranged attacks are accurate even when the others are not.  I figure when he adjusted the ranged that he reworked a lot of them.  This is another where a very good Brigade got pushed up.

Our thoughts was the LR and SR were not likely, it seemed like the extras would be due to the breath but that was covered under the specials and were not required.  Pulling those, we added to the areas it was not already Ultimate.  And then let you know it was severely understated in ratings.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Absent
SR:Excellent, Excellent --- Absent
CH:Ultimate, Renowned --- Awesome
M1:Good, Awesome --- Ultimate
M2:Good, Ultimate --- Ultimate
CO:Excellent, Ultimate --- Ultimate
DE:Superior, Ultimate --- Ultimate
ST:Renowned, Ultimate --- Ultimate

I always found their defense suspect taking twice or more percent damage than other brigades I had (can't remember the kingdom- probably a wizard). Maybe something else was doing that, as the actual DE was ultimate. Curious.

Well, one of the problems is when you mix brigades in a group they all end up with the same defense rating. Not sure why it ended up with more damage though.

---

Pixies [20]:
Let us face it, these are not good troops. The only thing they have going for them right now is LR. All we did is improve the SR a bit. They would make great raiders.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Excellent
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Very Poor, Poor --- Poor
M1:Average, Poor --- Poor
M2:Below Average, Poor --- Not A Factor
CO:Below Average, Very Poor --- Very Poor
DE:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
ST:Below Average, Poor --- Not A Factor

---

Rangers:
These are supposed to be good bowmen and then just a cut above regulars. Their ratings improved. We were thinking more along wandering bowmen with good rapport with animals, so no real siegecraft. We could drop the CH a bit to raise the fighting but the horses working with the Rangers seemed like a good combo.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Excellent, Excellent --- Superior
SR:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
CH:Good, Good --- Excellent
M1:Above Average, Very Good --- Above Average
M2:Above Average, Good --- Average
CO:Above Average, Good --- Good
DE:Good, Good --- Good
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Average

---

Rocs [1]:
Again, no LR. SR is good because anything that can carry 4 Brigades of Giants is damn big, so any rocks it drops is gonna cover a lot of space. Fighting teeny, tiny targets is a bit of a problem, though. And towns have such small space to fit into.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Below Average --- Absent
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Excellent, Above Average --- Very Good
M1:Good, Below Average --- Below Average
M2:Above Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CO:Good, Below Average --- Average
DE:Excellent, Good --- Good
ST:Good, Above Average --- Average

---

Red Dragons:
We really wanted to keep that SR and CH. Think we should drop the LR as the fire doesn't reach well, and add to the M1.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Good
SR:Excellent, Excellent --- Renowned
CH:Ultimate, Ultimate --- Renowned
M1:Good, Renowned --- Above Average
M2:Good, Excellent --- Good
CO:Excellent, Ultimate --- Excellent
DE:Superior, Awesome --- Awesome
ST:Renowned, Renowned --- Awesome

---

Rock Golems [5]:
This is a pow-6 Summons. I look at the ratings, both Posted and Actual, and I wonder why anybody spends the order on it. Ok, the high defense raises other brigades, but you can do as well just recruiting for the other stats.

Our thoughts: Again, no LR. SR is them throwing rocks. They are made of rock, they should fight well, and they are a high level summon, they should be worth the effort. Their CH is more of them watching you break on them then them hitting hard.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Average --- Absent
SR:Below Average, Average --- Good
CH:Very Poor, Below Average --- Excellent
M1:Above Average, Very Good --- Excellent
M2:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
CO:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
DE:Good, Excellent --- Renowned
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Ultimate

---

Rohirrim [10]:
Throwing javelins on the way in and charging down troops with lances. Light cavalry. Not heavily armored because that slows the horses.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Above Average
SR:Average, Average --- Good
CH:Good, Good --- Very Good
M1:Above Average, Good --- Average
M2:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Above Average, Average --- Below Average
ST:Above Average, Average --- Average

---

Sacred Order:
Heavy cavalry. Still not much ST equipment.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Good
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Awesome, Ultimate --- Renowned
M1:Good, Excellent --- Excellent
M2:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
CO:Good, Excellent --- Excellent
DE:Very Good, Excellent --- Very Good
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Average

---

Scorpions [5]:
Again no LR and SR. They scuttle to move. They surprise a lot. Have hard shells and nasty claws and tail. And need room to move and do not hurt walls much.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor --- Absent
SR:Average, Below Average --- Absent
CH:Average, Average --- Below Average
M1:Good, Excellent --- Renowned
M2:Good, Superior --- Renowned
CO:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
DE:Good, Excellent --- Very Good
ST:Above Average, Average --- Average

---

Skeletons [20]:
Barely together bones have a hard time coordinating ranged anything. They are cannon fodder. But they pull themselves together after every fight.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Below Average --- Poor
SR:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
CH:Very Poor, Poor --- Below Average
M1:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
M2:Average, Poor --- Below Average
CO:Below Average, Very Poor --- Poor
DE:Below Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Below Average, Poor --- Not A Factor

---

Shambling Mounds [3]:
The pow-9 Summons. So only Iron Golems should be better. They do not have any LR or SR, but they just absorb charges and eat everything in their path.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR: Awesome, Awesome --- Absent
SR: Very Good, Excellent --- Absent
CH:Above Average, Superior --- Renowned
M1:Above Average, Ultimate --- Ultimate
M2:Above Average, Excellent --- Ultimate
CO:Above Average, Ultimate --- Awesome
DE:Above Average, Ultimate --- Renowned
ST: Above Average, Ultimate --- Ultimate

---

Sorcerer:
They are a low rated troop. The caveat here is their defense is currently tied to Sacred Order's by some hard-coded error. So they have a good defense or we screw SA. Not really fair.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CH:Very Poor, Poor --- Poor
M1:Average, Poor --- Poor
M2:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CO:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
DE:Below Average, Below Average --- Very Good
ST:Below Average, Poor --- Poor

---

Specters [7]:
A pow-7 evil Summons. Should have high power. Looking at them, they should have a bit better ST as they can just float thru walls. We will transfer some from M2 to ST, we think.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Below Average --- Absent
SR:Average, Below Average --- Absent
CH:Average, Above Average --- Excellent
M1:Average, Below Average --- Excellent
M2:Average, Below Average --- Renowned
CO:Average, Average --- Excellent
DE:Average, Average --- Average
ST:Above Average, Average --- Average

---

Sprites [10]:
Basically another hit and run brigade. A slightly improved Pixie.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Good, Good --- Good
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Very Poor, Poor --- Poor
M1:Average, Poor --- Below Average
M2:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
CO:Below Average, Very Poor --- Poor
DE:Below Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Below Average, Poor --- Not A Factor

---

Stormgate Guard:
Looking at them, we think we need to upgrade them a bit, as they are the premier Recruited Brigade.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Excellent, Excellent --- Excellent
SR:Good, Good --- Excellent
CH:Very Good, Excellent --- Above Average
M1:Good, Excellent --- Average
M2:Above Average, Average --- Average
CO:Excellent, Superior --- Average
DE:Excellent, Excellent --- Very Good
ST:Very Good, Good --- Above Average

---

Saurus [10]:
Another javelin user, just not as practiced as the Lizard men. They prefer to get in and rip things apart, and have the claws to climb walls.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor --- Absent
SR:Above Average, Average --- Average
CH:Very Good, Very Good --- Very Good
M1:Above Average, Very Good --- Good
M2:Good, Superior --- Excellent
CO:Above Average, Good --- Very Good
DE:Above Average, Above Average --- Average
ST:Good, Very Good --- Good

---

Swampmen [10]:
Average folks. Used to wading in marsh, so charge is a little slow from lack of practice. Same with attacking walled towns.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Average, Average --- Average
CH:Below Average, Below Average --- Below Average
M1:Above Average, Good --- Average
M2:Above Average, Good --- Average
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Average, Average --- Average
ST:Average, Average --- Below Average

[JohnnyUtah]

Are the troop defensive ratings in the turn reports reliable? In my current Sorcerer game regular SO units show Renowned defensive rating.

[JohnnyUtah]

Also, you're original post shows Renowned being higher that Superior, but one of my turn shows a Veteran unit with Superior defense and a regular unit with Renowned...

Mammoths Veteran 1 125% 0.7% Superior
Mammoths Regular 2 122% 0% Renowned

[Strongwill]

Are the troop defensive ratings in the turn reports reliable? In my current Sorcerer game regular SO units show Renowned defensive rating.

No… I had SO in a few games reg. Showed renowned. They need to be redone.

[Olorin]

Also, you're original post shows Renowned being higher that Superior, but one of my turn shows a Veteran unit with Superior defense and a regular unit with Renowned...

Mammoths Veteran 1 125% 0.7% Superior
Mammoths Regular 2 122% 0% Renowned

Those are Mammoths, not SO. Just saying.

---

Are the troop defensive ratings in the turn reports reliable? In my current Sorcerer game regular SO units show Renowned defensive rating.

Are the troop defensive ratings in the turn reports reliable? In my current Sorcerer game regular SO units show Renowned defensive rating.

No… I had SO in a few games reg. Showed renowned. They need to be redone.

What I have at the top is what Brekk and I agreed to use. We actually have no idea what criteria the previous designer used for Renowned, Awesome or Ultimate as he never shared it with Brekk. So we are using ours for the Actual and Proposed ratings so you can compare apples to apples.

[Olorin]

Troglodytes [20]:
Yes, that is an absent in the defense. Remember that divide by your defense rating? Theirs was 1. It just cannot get worse than no defense, short of shields that attract arrows or something.

Our thoughts were that it is a pow-1 Monster Summon, so it is no great shakes, bottom of the barrel stuff. But it still needs at least a little defense.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Awesome, Awesome --- Average
SR:Very Good, Excellent --- Poor
CH: Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M1:Above Average. Average --- Poor
M2:Above Average, Average --- Very Poor
CO:Above Average, Good --- Poor
DE:Above Average, Absent --- Poor
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Average

---

Trolls [3]:
Trolls just had too much special bonus. Add to that how much better their actual ratings were than were posted and you can see why they were so wanted by everybody. We could bring the CH up a bit, probably by trimming some of M2 or SR.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Below Average --- Absent
SR:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CH:Above Average, Above Average --- Average
M1:Good, Renowned --- Excellent
M2:Very Good, Awesome --- Renowned
CO:Good, Excellent --- Excellent
DE:Very Good, Superior --- Excellent
ST:Very Good, Superior --- Superior

---

Tyrant:
The problem with this one was the lack of knowledge that the brigade was inferior fighting. The DE was below the average [still in the average rating], and we did not change it. For a military kingdom all average is pretty low. Speaking of which, we think we should raise the DE and ST a bit.

This one feels like a more military style Fairy Folk; lots of mediocre troops rather than good ones. So the Reinforcement needs a look too.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Above Average
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Good, Good --- Good
M1:Average, Below Average --- Average
M2:Above Average, Average --- Average
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Average, Average --- Below Average
ST:Average, Average --- Below Average

---

Unicorns [7]:
Again, no hands equals no ranged. And hooved creatures do not climb walls. But then we could use the points to increase fighting ratings so it worked out well.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor --- Absent
SR:Below Average, Poor --- Absent
CH: Above Average, Above Average --- Very Good
M1:Above Average, Good --- Good
M2:Above Average, Average --- Good
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Above Average, Excellent --- Excellent
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Poor

---

Umber Hulks [3]:
The pow-7 Monster Summon. In theory,given a choice between this and a pit fiend based on combat value alone, you should want these. Is that the case? In any case, they still are not known for missiles or thrown weapons so we pushed for the rest. They are kind of like fast moving earth elementals, with a confusing aura to get others to stand still in confusion so they can get in a hit.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Awesome, Awesome --- Absent
SR:Very Good, Excellent --- Absent
CH: Above Average, Excellent --- Renowned
M1:Above Average, Ultimate --- Renowned
M2:Above Average, Awesome --- Awesome
CO:Above Average, Renowned --- Renowned
DE:Above Average, Awesome --- Renowned
ST:Above Average, Awesome --- Awesome

---

Underworld:
Draft a bunch of rogues, street skulkers and the like. This is their unit. We should probably switch the LR and SR, as these are the knife-throwers par excellance. And their ST could go up a bit, they all have practice climbing walls and entering second-story windows and the like. But stand and fight goes kind of against their nature. DE is kind of a question; they have little armor but are all practiced at dodging a blow.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Excellent
SR:Average, Average --- Average
CH:Very Poor, Poor --- Poor
M1:Average, Poor --- Below Average
M2:Average, Poor --- Below Average
CO:Average, Poor --- Poor
DE:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Below Average, Below Average --- Poor

---

Uak Hai [10]:
These are supposed to be superior orcs. They are better than the orcs. I may want to reconsider this after we look at the orcs again.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Above Average
SR:Good, Above Average --- Very Good
CH: Above Average, Above Average --- Average
M1:Above Average, Good --- Average
M2:Good, Good --- Average
CO:Good, Excellent --- Average
DE:Above Average, Above Average --- Average
ST:Above Average, Average --- Average

---

Vikings:
Much though I hate to say it, I think we well need to go over the Recruited types and give them a bit more of a boost. They all seem a bit lower than we were hoping they would be and that is on me and my ideas. Vikings were one of those superior to the posted and we seem to have over-corrected for it.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Average
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH:Good, Good --- Average
M1:Excellent, Superior --- Average
M2:Good, Good --- Average
CO:Above Average, Good --- Average
DE:Good, Above Average --- Average
ST:Good, Good --- Above Average

---

Warlock:
It looks like this was intended to be slightly better than an average human unit but when everything improved it dropped to worse. We brought it back to about average again. That ST needs a bit more and we will have to consider what else .

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CH:Average, Average --- Average
M1:Above Average, Average --- Average
M2:Average, Below Average --- Average
CO:Average, Below Average --- Average
DE:Average, Below Average --- Average
ST:Average, Below Average --- Poor

---

Westmen:
This one is on me also. We were talking about making this brigade more of a defensive specialist [because of the special], some thing along the lines of the tortoise defense. It slipped my mind and did not make it to the sheet. The LR and SR should be below or poor. The lower CH is because of moving with large shields in lockstep, but their defense is supposed to be better.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Average, Average --- Below Average
CH:Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M1:Average, Below Average --- Average
M2:Above Average, Average --- Average
CO:Average, Below Average --- Average
DE:Average, Average --- Average
ST:Above Average, Average --- Below Average

---

Wildlings [10]:
Wildlings to me were like the old image of painted Picts bursting out in some ragged charge throwing spears, crashing into their opponents and then quickly fading back into the terrain. So, the LR is a bit high for that, and the CH and M2 should exchange. ST seems really appropriate as they would not bring much gear with them.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Below Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Average, Average --- Average
CH: Above Average, Above Average --- Average
M1:Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M2:Good, Excellent --- Good
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Above Average, Below Average --- Average
ST:Average, Average --- Below Average

---

War Machines [5]:
This one we did very little with. These are siege equipment. Any points they picked up when we were working with them went to LR, SR and ST.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Ultimate, Ultimate --- Awesome
SR:Good, Good --- Excellent
CH:Absent, Absent --- Absent
M1:Not A Factor, Not A Factor --- Not A Factor
M2:Absent, Not A Factor --- Not A Factor
CO:Very Poor, Not A Factor --- Not A Factor
DE:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
ST:Good, Excellent --- Renowned

---

Wood Elves [5]:
These, like the other elves, are really good bowmen. They do not want to charge and get close. They can fight ok if they have to but do not want to.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Good, Very Good --- Renowned
SR:Good, Good --- Excellent
CH:Below Average, Below Average --- Poor
M1:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
M2:Above Average, Good --- Average
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Average, Average --- Below Average

---

Warg Riders [10]:
Goblins on wolves. The LR might be high as a wolf is not as stable as a horse to fire from. Could raise the CH, maybe the M1. The rest seems right.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Below Average --- Average
SR:Above Average, Average --- Good
CH: Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M1:Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M2:Average, Below Average --- Poor
CO:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
DE:Average, Above Average --- Average
ST:Above Average, Below Average --- Poor

---

Wights [7]:
A pow-7 evil summons. You get a few more of these than Umber Hulks, so we figured they would be a little less strong, but they needed an upgrade from average. Their LR could drop, they do not have a reputation for missiles particularly. Maybe trade that for a bit more DE.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor --- Below Average
SR:Below Average, Poor --- Poor
CH: Above Average, Above Average --- Good
M1:Above Average, Good --- Good
M2:Above Average, Average --- Good
CO:Above Average, Average --- Good
DE:Above Average, Above Average --- Average
ST:Above Average, Above Average --- Average

---

Wyverns [10]:
We discussed maybe their riders did Ranged, but the dragons would have objected to riders, so no-go on missiles. Dropped rocks again for SR. We moved the DE so they were more in line with dragon-like scales, still not to dragon levels though. ST the rocks would be useful as Wyverns are big enough for rocks to damage the walls.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Average --- Absent
SR:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CH:Good, Good --- Good
M1:Above Average, Average --- Average
M2:Above Average, Good --- Average
CO:Above Average, Average --- Average
DE:Above Average, Average --- Above Average
ST:Above Average, Good --- Above Average

---

Zamorans:
The Zamorans were another swept up by the average climbing. We really did not do anything with them so their ratings have continued to drop. Like I said earlier, I think we will need to revisit the Recruited in general.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average --- Above Average
SR:Good, Above Average --- Average
CH:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
M1:Above Average, Average --- Below Average
M2:Above Average, Average --- Average
CO:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
DE:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Average, Below Average --- Poor

---

Zealots [10]:
Again, we did not change a lot here. They had bad ratings to start and got pushed a bit further when others improved. If not for Ranged, they would be worse fighters than the Zombies.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Average, Average --- Average
SR:Average, Average --- Average
CH:Below Average, Below Average --- Poor
M1:Average, Poor --- Poor
M2:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
CO:Average, Poor --- Below Average
DE:Below Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Below Average, Poor --- Poor

---

Zombies [20]:
Again, we did little here. The few points we added were to bring their fighting ability up to where it started.

Posted, Actual --- Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor --- Poor
SR:Very Poor, Very Poor --- Very Poor
CH:Below Average, Below Average --- Below Average
M1:Average, Below Average --- Average
M2:Average, Below Average --- Average
CO:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
DE:Average, Below Average --- Below Average
ST:Below Average, Below Average --- Poor

[Olorin]

All of the brigades are now posted.We already have a bit of a list for corrections. Which is good. The sooner we get these squared away, the sooner we can get to work on the Companions and Reinforcement lists.

I can also put the brigades in a different way for you folk to think about. I can list them by the Combat Ratings and their status in each; All the Long Range listed by rating, all Poor together, all Below Average, etc. IF that will help you to look them over.