Brigade comparisons

[Olorin]

I have a comment/complaint.  I was playing the fairies, had 7 fairies' brigades, 1 chimeras, 20 sprites, 20 pixies, 5 gargoyles, 5 manticores, 3 - 5th level wizards, decent leaders (marshal or warlord , can remember).  Group was 153000.  Fought a full red dragon army 4 red dragons, 1 phoenix, 5 wyverns, 10 bats.  Probably 75-80 thousand.  His leadership was about mine, and his wizards were slightly worse.  We fight, full attack from him, full defensive for me.  He losses 17 percent and i loose everything.  Why give strengths that don't match up to how they fight at all.  I probably should have destroyed him, I would have been ok with both of us loosing 80000 in strength.  But to be destroyed like that kind of ticked me off. I don't understand the battle system here at all and have been severely punished in games by it once the game goes to turn 18 plus.

OK, I will be a bit more specific this time.  If he is in the range you say, most of his troops are elite, the rest are probably veterans.  So his defense is already getting a multiple.  This looks a bit later in the game so he likely has Improved Weaponry and armor.  Again a multiplier of his already high defense.  Your troops all add up to about regular.  So he was closer to a 5 and you were likely at 1.4 for dividers.  So on the face of it you need at least 3 or 4 times his strength to inflict equivalent losses on him.

Next, I will go on a limb and bet you fought in Forest.  You were defending, he was attacking.  You knew you had Supremacy in Forest, so a +30% bonus and he had Adversity there, so a -20% on him.  But that would show up on your numbers already before the battle. Assuming you were in Forest, his numbers were in reality more like 90,000 plus, which is way over what I would expect from Veterans.  So a lot of Elites. If he had a magic weapon to boost his combat values by even 10 or 15% he was likely taking you out 3 or 4 times faster than you were doing to him.

The other problem there was most of your troops do their best damage at range.  In Forest, Long range damage is 0 (unless you have Archers trait, which FF does NOT) and Short range is only 50%. Pixies, Sprites and Fairy Folk are some of the worst troops at Charge and Melee phases of combat.  Red Dragons are at the top of the list for Charge, and good at Melee too.

So he got to get up close with few losses to ranged attack and went straight to his preferred combat.

The next part that is important to remember is that the game subtracts the damage in each phase before going to the next one.  So if you take 10% damage from the charge (and previous parts of the battle) you will only do 90% of your starting damage for the Melee 1 phase.  And if you take another 10% in Melee 1, then you will only have 80% of your starting damage in Melee 2.  (Starting damage is what is listed in your report for the Group before combat).  If you are losing troops faster it becomes a compounding problem.

So do not look at just the total value of your troops, look at the value in each phase of battle.


Now I have no idea if you could have won in an Open battle.  I do know that Sprites and Pixies both do more damage in ranged attacks than they gained from the Supremacy boost.  More the damage they would have inflicted would have been before the Red Dragons best attacks (Charge and Melee), and reduced the impact of them.  When you have 58 brigades and 40 of them have their best attack at ranged you might want to think about whether or not to nerf ranged.

[Frostking]

I can't remember his troops being elite or not. If I remember right our armies looked very similar on paper for leadership, experience and whatever. Now you keep talking up red dragons, and i get it. But the majority of his forces were bats and wyverns. There were 4 red dragons. not 10 red dragons.

[uncledarkseid]

I can't remember his troops being elite or not.  If I remember right our armies looked very similar on paper for leadership, experience and whatever.  Now you keep talking up red dragons, and i get it.  But the majority of his forces were bats and wyverns.  There were 4 red dragons.  not 10 red dragons.

Red base is about 4.5k for regular, so elite are worth 5.75 ish
So base value of 21.5 for the reds alone
Add in best multipliers of morale 160, artiffacts of 10% and 15%, leaders of warlords, attack upgrade of 25%, elite troops, and those add up to 
13
2.1
3.2
5.4
5.4
5.4
5.4
Total bonuses 39.8

Total value for the four brigades with best multipliers 61.5 for the red alone. Elite wyverns worth about 2.2, elite phoenix about 3k, bats elite about 1.7k So another 11k, 3k, and 17k. Their best base value was 52k. Add in the bonuses for all together 
32k
5.2k
7k
13k
13k
13k
13k
Total group value 146k with best multipliers, not including presence, spells like valor which could add another 13k, the fear that reduces your troops, etc. 

Assumed battle in plains.

[Frostking]

So i have a question, why not just label the group at 146, instead of say 70 for the dragon?, or we talking just on the charge here?

[uncledarkseid]

So i have a question, why not just label the group at 146, instead of say 70 for the dragon?, or we talking just on the charge here?

It is a very good question.. 
group vs group and group vs pop would have to be separated. 

I imagine, that throughout the evolution of the game, things evolved and were changed. It was much simpler back in ‘87.  
However, the original concept creators Rick and Phil stated seversl times that they did want some of the mystique in the game.  Probably like rolling a dice in DnD, you never know the outcome for sure.  

Lord Mike was great at developing, but I am sure it is a lot, thats why Brek is in the test phase right now, and the tweeking phase.  

I would also guess that the equation to develop would be extensive!!!

[Brekk]

It will be worthwhile to look at other groups’ damage in each phase going forward as well. This information is listed on the owner’s sheet, not what an opponent sees, but it is good to have an idea of how things compare.

Frostking, your frustration is heard. Many have voiced the same concerns, and we are working on it. It is simply not as easy as flipping a switch. We are getting close to “done” in the sense of making the core change, but we are still far from “done” in terms of working everything out afterward.

Once it is completed and officially finalized, I will be updating all sheets and guides. The game will play differently. I am also having to learn the game backwards, from results back into the code, figuring out what can and cannot be changed. I understand 100 percent more today about how things actually work compared to three years ago when I first acquired Alamaze.

All this to say, hang tight, I am working on it, brother.

[Frostking]

Sorry if i sound like a naysayer. I enjoy the game. It's just a little frustrating getting soundly beaten when you think the battle should have least been close. I have built several armies very badly and been punished for it, and really not been much wiser after battles. Should i do this, that, i really don't know after playing 15 games or so. I still don't know the magic portion very well either (but thats a whole other can off worms). I find the beginning stages of the game more entertaining then later, probably because my armies are paper tigers.

[Strongwill]

Can u post the pre combat comparison? Or will it spoil game play?

[Brekk]

Frostking, posting battles and such to gain insight, and asking vets questions about the results, is a great idea.

[Alzreborn]

Which place is best to show battles for discussion.  The DK absolutely abolished one of my Legendaries so I am missing something there.