Casual Player Insights

[Lord Moontree.]

Let me start by saying I absolutely LOVE Alamaze. I first started playing it back in the 90's, then again around 10 years ago, and most recently I've played 4-5 games. Many of the changes over the years are quite simply amazing and increase the game's enjoyment so much.

For what it's worth, I thought I'd offer my insights. Mind you I recognize many of you know the game WAY better than I do, and I consider myself a casual player. For me, the overall feel is just a little off. The game feels kind of like a race and if you get invaded early (or heaven forbid invaded by 2+ realms simultaneously in an anonymous game which has happened to me twice recently), that "race" suddenly feels like it's lost and your position is not recoverable.

What appeals to me about the game is the build-up. You feel like you are shaping your kingdom's destiny by exploring, cementing your hold over your region, building neat buildings and fortifications, etc. But in my opinion, many of the game mechanics enable all your hard work to be undone in the bat of an eye. What I've seen is if someone gets the jump on you (sending in 8+ diplomats along with 2-3 armies), you might be able to fend them off (unless the aforementioned 2nd wave comes from 2nd opponent), but even if you do you are just playing out the rest of the game trying to recover and maybe place in the top 5 or so.

It got me to thinking. What if the game was "slowed" down a bit. What I mean by that is mechanisms introduced to make it harder for your realm to just get blown up in 2-3 turns. For example, what if movement was 15 (vs. 20) thus slowing down enemy armies a tad. What if taking control of your PCs typically need two enemy diplomats, one to Stir Unrest and one to Usurp, even if your opponent is Friendly in the region. And what if there were a Surrender/Truce mechanism whereby you can declare you've lost to an opponent's invasion, they keep whatever they currently have, but you are shielded from further aggression for a few turns costing you a hit in Influence.

I think by having some of these changes made, at least from my casual perspective, it would capture more of that magic of maintaining your realm. I think it also adds a bit of realism.

Anyway, please don't take this post the wrong way. I do really love this game. I also recognize that many really enjoy the game exactly how it is currently and it would be impossible to make a game that everyone loved equally. But just in case others sort of felt the same way, I figured I would offer up my thoughts.

[Tacticus]

I also played Alamaze in 90s and here since last year. Great game, community and moderator!
Slowing the pace makes more addictive and keeping players in a game longer more fun.
Though it's not just army movements. Hence there are spells and artifacts which armies can jump anywhere or long distance in one turn.
On the other hand; wizards, politics, agents are also raised fast. Once a military kingdom took all my pop centers expect the city and capital, in one turn with invisible diplomats.
Overall it is like build up around until turns 15/20, and then face the uncertainty.

[Clueless]

The problem is that food and gold production are too high. Decrease production and you'll slow down the game, while also making it more challenging for everyone. As now, a kingdom can have everything that they want: higher wizards, a ton of troops, free emissary/agent/priestess actions, etc. It's too easy to attract newer people, but at the sacrifice of overpowering the players.

Wasn't there a forum post by one of the programmers mentioning a new variant of an austerity-driven version of the game, decreasing production and making troops/wizards/orders more expensive? Including encounters to make artifacts more rare and precious? Because that would certainly slow things down making everyone a lot more careful in their plans of what to develop in their kingdom (compared to now which is that you can have everything).

[davekuyk]

The problem is that food and gold production are too high. Decrease production and you'll slow down the game, while also making it more challenging for everyone. As now, a kingdom can have everything that they want: higher wizards, a ton of troops, free emissary/agent/priestess actions, etc. It's too easy to attract newer people, but at the sacrifice of overpowering the players.

Wasn't there a forum post by one of the programmers mentioning a new variant of an austerity-driven version of the game, decreasing production and making troops/wizards/orders more expensive? Including encounters to make artifacts more rare and precious? Because that would certainly slow things down making everyone a lot more careful in their plans of what to develop in their kingdom (compared to now which is that you can have everything).

IMHO, the issue is not that food and gold production are too high. PCs produce about as much as they always have; if anything, kingdoms are slower in the early game now than they were in the past due to hidden cities, restrictions on divinations, and reduced emissary range (all good changes btw). 

The real issue (again, IMHO) is the zero cost of a single order: 480 Raise Influence.

Due to this single change, it is the optimal strategy, regardless of kingdom (AN aside), to raise influence via a standing order as early as turn 1, allowing most kingdoms to hit the influence max of 20 on turn 7 or 8. Hitting the order max early allows kingdoms more options, which in turn leads to more early production, which then fuels the supercharged kingdoms we see now. Another side effect is that every kingdom is a political powerhouse, as they spend most of the game near the influence max. Once upon a time, a kingdom might be able to mount a political attack with multiple princes OR an attack with multiple groups, now that "or" is an "and" for everyone.

The order bottleneck is a central design of the game. Limiting the number of actions a player can take forces tradeoffs and creativity. Kingdoms reach the order limit early with few tradeoffs, where before players would have to sacrifice something to afford the raise influence order each and every turn. Allowing kingdoms 22-23 orders as soon as turn 7, 8, or 9, we see a cascading effect on future turns as kingdoms have more production, more intel, and more options.

Is this all a problem? I'm not sure. The game is different, certainly. It is still enjoyable.

Perhaps another problem, related somewhat, is that wizards scale in three dimensions: cost, power, and level. Maybe that is too much. Take a WA wizard vs a non-wizard kingdom. The WA wizard is 1) cheaper to raise, 2) has better spells, and 3) has a higher assured max. 

A thought experiment, what if all wizards cost 10,000 gold to raise, but some kingdoms scaled better on the other dimensions - better spells and higher max? How would that change the game?

[Lord Moontree.]

Great conversation, thanks all! I think those are all valid points (lowering gold/food, lowering # orders, etc.).

I also still like the idea of having a "Surrender" option where when you are getting smashed, you can cut your losses. This idea came to me from a board game that I love called Europa Universalis - The Price of Power. In this board game, if an opponent is beating the snot out of you, you can basically surrender so that that opponent cannot continue to steamroll you.

I think a similar mechanic could be introduced that, in my opinion, would really help players in certain situations. It should come at a cost, of course. As I see it, the game effect could be something like your realm is immune to all diplomatic offensive actions (320/330), military actions (110/111/150/160/170/180/190), and covert actions actions (pretty much all but perhaps limited to 940/945/955) for 5 turns. However, after declaring a surrender, your Influence takes a hit (-3?) and you also cannot perform any of the above actions. What this would do is stop the bleeding and give you time to get back on your feet - perhaps leveling up some wizards and agents, building an army, moving emissaries into place, etc.

I think this Surrender order should be high number (in the 900's), so that your opponent can complete whatever action they were about to do (e.g. attack that PC, etc.).

I think such a Surrender rule could really help when you are betting bullied by a more powerful realm, or especially when you find yourself being attacked by 2 or more players.

What do you all think about such a mechanism?

[davekuyk]

I like the general concept of a Surrender option, but the implementation would seem problematic, as any sort of immunity would leave the door open to abuse.

Can you surrender at any point? Could you do it to prevent someone from attacking you? I am a wizard kingdom; the instant I see an enemy group in my region, surrender! I've got four regions - I surrender! Now I have time to build and plan to take my last region, as I am now immune to attack. (Can't surrender if in control of a region, fine, I'll keep control of the key PCs.)

The drawback would have to be pretty severe so as not to abuse it in any number of ways, yet not so severe that it would be pointless to invoke. That would be a difficult design line to walk.

[Xerro]

Clueless wrote food and gold production is too high. I sort of agree with this. My opinion is the economy is DOMINATED by wizards. Hidden ore and fertile field are the keys to a strong economy. A too strong economy enables all the problems clueless wrote about. Wizards are strong already. Their economic spells really are over the top. All kingdoms should be able to grow their economys equally. I would love to play in a game where neither of those spells were allowed to see how different of a game it would be. I would even volunteer to run a pure wizard kingdom to see if they would be viable. I would love to see a revamp in the improve pop center orders to make them viable for all. For some increasing their food production because they need food is impossiblly crippling without magic.

[Strongwill]

Over the last ten years this game has gone through several revamps. The third cycle setup always seemed more balanced across the board, but it had its issues too.

Food=product has been nerfed several times. The bounty spell is a shell of what it used to be. The cost to build a port is ridiculously high and so on… these changes happened because gamers loaded up when no one was fighting them early on, developing kingdoms production.

Now I like developing too, but before the buffs those production numbers were huge. However one way to stop a full out production behemoth is to attack him? I have too many times seen folks attack a kingdom with a single region over someone working on their third; so I’m reminded of a great saying “reap what you sow” you let that person explode his economics instead of attacking him.

Some just look to place in top three, so maybe nix the top three podiums and make win only for recognition? Might get people more interested in taking out the board leader than trying for a second or third place trophy?

Imho production isn’t the issue, but orders that have no cost is. I agree these free orders scattered throughout the game mechanics should be revamped back to a cost of Gold or Product/Food. Putting those standing orders more in check of raising a kings influence and such.

And truly the new stuff Brek/John and company are working on will make some big differences in game play, the cost of each pop recruited troop, summoned troop, and companion recruit troop needs revision, when a lower tier troop cost as much as a high lvl troop that’s an issue, cost increase for the big bad recruited troops need to be exponentially increased to offset that defensive rating it holds. IMO

Another change is the hidden capitals, needs revamp, a military power doesn’t need it, and lesser kingdoms do imo

[Windstar]

FYI: There is an order that would not allow someone to attack your PC: the sanctuary. With this order, a group cannot siege or attack your non-PC spot. If you feel that you need a way out by being attacked, you can do this and transfer yourself there when the time comes. Not exactly sure about the mechanics of it. You have no income or food production there, and I believe that it costs 10,000 food and gold.

[Strongwill]

FYI: There is an order that would not allow someone to attack your PC: the sanctuary. With this order, a group cannot siege or attack your non-PC spot. If you feel that you need a way out by being attacked, you can do this and transfer yourself there when the time comes. Not exactly sure about the mechanics of it. You have no income or food production there, and I believe that it costs 10,000 food and gold.

I think it can only be utilized as a last resort with no PC’s remaining. So when it gets to that point in game terms it’s already grim…