Dropping viable positions - Why?

[Lord Diamond]

One that would support new players and issues they tend to have with a complex game. Understanding that some people have issues with applications like Excel and being sympathetic and not condenseding.

This thread is about quitters, not people who want to learn the game. It is not for the faint at heart. If you are inclined to quit a game partway through, this isn't for you. You won't find me understanding at all in that circumstance.

[Lord Diamond]

Seriously, if you like these kind of games, you have been gaming your entire life. Following instructions, typing and excel is taught in grade school.

Yes this game is complicated, but the complication of the game is not why people quit, it is due to the "current player base" kicking their ass so fast, AND them making mistakes. Some new players stay and play another, others don't.

If you could truly only put new players in their own game, that might help. But they ALWAYS get tossed in with experienced players, and that is the real issue right there.

I think that's what Primeval is supposed to be about.

Master & Apprentice seemed to work out okay.

Anonymous, not so much. I am a reasonably experienced player, but I regularly get my butt kicked. If you can't stand getting beat, this isn't for you. In order, here are my finishes in 12-15 player games:

1st
6th
7th
11th
3rd
12th

That represents a lot of getting pummeled when you consider some of those were last place! I started off so well...

[Drogo]

The 5 player game (is that primeval) was a nice way to start for me. Also the idea of a personal master for each new player seem to sound right to me. For me Jumpingfist has made a tremendous difference in the length of my learning curve. Others have greatly contributed as well. But the player's initial interest level has to be high enough that they're willing (happy?) to put in the time to learn the games rules and then the game's nuances.

[Lord Diamond]

The 5 player game (is that primeval) was a nice way to start for me. Also the idea of a personal master for each new player seem to sound right to me. For me Jumpingfist has made a tremendous difference in the length of my learning curve. Others have greatly contributed as well. But the player's initial interest level has to be high enough that they're willing (happy?) to put in the time to learn the games rules and then the game's nuances.

It would be one thing if it were just newbies dropping, bur I don't believe that's the case.

[paway]

I don't think players dropping viable positions because of order errors is isolated to new players, as we saw recently with Yellowbeard dropping his position after badly botching his orders on what was supposed to be his victory.

Its all well and good if we say "we don't need them" or talk about how we are superior, but guess we what? We DO need them. The more players there are, the better the games are, and the more money the company that runs the game makes. Its a pretty simple equation.

If having an updated document with all the orders in it (instead of having to check the Commands pdf, then look through a fairly well hidden Known Issues thread in a forum) keeps players from dropping and quitting the game entirely, that is a good thing.

If having a program that checks your orders to make sure they are valid keeps players from dropping and quitting the game entirely, that is a good thing.

If having an automated system set up that emails participants when their turns aren't in on time (instead of the current system, where certain players are contacted and games are held up for them, while other games are run immediately, even when the emailed orders from them were accidentally overlooked) keeps players from dropping and quitting the game entirely, that is a good thing.

If having an online order submission system instead of one involved Excel docs that auto-fill in the wrong details and implode when you make a wrong keystroke keeps players from dropping and quitting the game entirely, that is a good thing.

None of these ideas make the game less complex, challenging, or fun. All they do is remove barriers that prevent new players from getting hooked on the game and sometimes prevent veteran players from enjoying it.

[Lord Diamond]

We need them if they are going to stick around. Droppers ruin games. Period. The more players, the better. That is true throughout a game, not just on turn one.

I agree that a lot can be done to attract the right players, make the game easier, and retain players. No doubt about it. In the meantime, stop dropping viable kingdoms!

[DuPont]

I do agree that an order entry checker should be the #1 priority right now.

[Lord Diamond]

I do agree that an order entry checker should be the #1 priority right now.

I could play more games, and give Rick more money, if we had one.

[DuPont]

I know it would be a lot easier for Rick as well. I had a problem with the orders I sent in today (bad format) and he was nice enough to fix it for me. But I hate to put him through the extra work.

[Ry Vor]

When Phil and I would discuss all things Alamaze, he would tell me, "Rick, you have to understand, people play for different reasons. You may want the game played a certain way, like Elves not working with Dark Elves, or players not issuing ten #600 orders in a turn, but you have to let them play the way they want and for their own reasons."

I didn't want players (the Reznick's, in games 1-10 come to mind) submitting a sheet of almost all #600 orders because I didn't think they were getting their money's worth or learning the game. Natural enemies meanwhile became pretty much accepted and understood.

Some of our players here play for one reason: to win. Many players don't give a damn about winning. Some never will and they know that and they don't care and they may have played for 20 years. I think that is as high praise as the game could get.

Early drops are a problem for unbalancing the game, especially if only one neighbor is aware of the drop. Most competitors (I know, I know - many of you don't believe in competitors) don't do anything about it. We invented, as far as I know, the standby positions, and announcing drops to the other players when it becomes official.

But drops after about turn 10 I think are ok if the player is getting a beat-down. That's not an early drop, and if its not fun for him or her, I'd rather they get in a new game, take their hard-earned lessons to the next contest and have fun with a fresh start. "Playing", by definition, is not a duty, its a recreation.

As I think I posted elsewhere, its not common that a kingdom in a good position is dropped after T6. Its uncommon and usually due to hurt feelings - within the game diplomacy or on the forum, or other-life issues rearing its ugly head.

We do recognize the diehards with our Peer Commendations for The Iron Willed. And the most important to me is The Chancellors - those that teach the game. And of course everyone loves the added in-game flavor from those who become Infamous. That's why the peer commendations are presently Page 1 of Valhalla. Its independent from winning games, but we still of course honor our Champions and those who have placed well.

I think The Usurper has said it well, and Drogo and others, that nurturing new players is everyone's responsibility in order to retain the players that we are able to attract in the first place. Experienced players should resist the urge to attack them from the get-go. Even if they don't respond to early diplomacy - they tend to be shy.

That's enough from me on that. I will post a new Sign Up thread for a Primeval for players who have been in no more than 3 games, except the central position will be the Warlock, and that will be a mentor position that is allied with all four other kingdoms, and can only win if the game goes to T24. Should be an interesting dynamic. The setup will be free for that player and not count against his service level, but you must write me at support as to why you want it - its not first come, first served.