Valhalla - Kingdoms of Alamaze

[Hawk_]

Interesting, thanks for painting a target on me, err, for letting me know, that is.

Seriously, I knew I was doing reasonably well, but I didn't know I was doing quite that well!

Yep, you and Wynand and VBM

Anybody think the ruthless pursuit of podium finishes may deter new players or drive away some?

Just wondering.

[VballMichael]

Maybe, but right behind those three are LT, JF, Cloud, Thalion II, and Hawk.
And I am never ruthless, just focused. And I generally choose my first target by who attacked my position first.

[HeadHoncho]

I don't think there's a solution to this issue, however, unless ALL players go in with an implicit agreement to play beanbag. Because the reality is that even if I don't push for the podium, there are a bunch of other players out there who will.

This dynamic came up over a year ago with me, I was playing GI with a ridiculously easy SVC (this was before the SVC customization, obviously). Another veteran challenged me to put that aside and instead race him to the Rex, but I passed up that offer, simply because there could be no guarantee that while we were going for Rex, another player wouldn't sneak in a SVC win.

EDIT: Honestly, I think Primeval and Mentor games are more of a solution to this issue. But once you're ready to enter the big leagues, expect a dogfight.

[Hawk_]

I don't think there's a solution to this issue, however, unless ALL players go in with an implicit agreement to play beanbag.  Because the reality is that even if I don't push for the podium, there are a bunch of other players out there who will.

This dynamic came up over a year ago with me, I was playing GI with a ridiculously easy SVC (this was before the SVC customization, obviously).  Another veteran challenged me to put that aside and instead race him to the Rex, but I passed up that offer, simply because there could be no guarantee that while we were going for Rex, another player wouldn't sneak in a SVC win.

EDIT: Honestly, I think Primeval and Mentor games are more of a solution to this issue.  But once you're ready to enter the big leagues, expect a dogfight.

If we had a larger player base it would make sense to group players with the higher win/place rates together. 

However, with the current player base we need to include everyone to start a game. 

I think we should try to not drive away people by making them feel like they can't win.  We will eventually end up with a very small group.

Not sure what all the answers are,  just making an observation.  HH could be on the right track with mentor games.


EDIT- We could also create an epic 6:6 battle that would produce 6 victors per game.

[HeadHoncho]

Don't get me wrong, I think your concern is valid, just not sure what the answer is, barring a nigh-global understanding.

[Jumpingfist]

I noticed the same thing. Some players are all about the win and have no issue tromping over a new player. The worst I even saw one that purposely looks for the weak link to move in that direction first. I was focused on the win at first and my first few game reflect this. Then I became much more focused on building the community and player base. I almost always partner with the newest player next to me in diplomacy games. My goal is to show them the ropes and try and keep them out of to much trouble in the game. Of course I still want to win and like to but it is not the sole focus. As Rick has said everyone has there own reasons for playing.

[IMPERIAL_TARK]

As a new player (only 6 weeks in), I can say that I don't mind if veterans come after me even ruthlessly.
Here's why:
1) It's a no win for the veteran.  If he crushes me, it's expected so what has he really achieved? plus he's viewed as a bully who went after a newbie instead of a vet challenge; not good karma there. But heaven forbid if the newbie (me) successfully fends him off, he'll never hear the end of that! And I will be ruthless in the forums then <VBEG>
2) I have found great mentor support here.  So if a big bad vet comes picking on me, I ask a different vet (not in the game of course) for advice on strategy and tactics to counter. That usually at least gives me a small fighting chance.
3) The only way to get really good at this game (steep learning curve where a single miscue can doom 21 turns of otherwise excellent play) is to watch and learn from the vets.  Every trick, trap, and tactic used against me goes into my playbook for future games. So I learn more from a vet tearing into me then another newbie.
4) Even as a newbie I'm still expecting to win against the veterans. Heck I'm expecting to shatter every Alamaze record out there! So the sooner the vets "bring it", the sooner I can tweak my "A" game and get on to most podium finishes for a new player in his first 10 games......ever.  So what is that record by the way?

[Jumpingfist]

As a new player (only 6 weeks in), I can say that I don't mind if veterans come after me even ruthlessly.
Here's why:
1) It's a no win for the veteran.  If he crushes me, it's expected so what has he really achieved? plus he's viewed as a bully who went after a newbie instead of a vet challenge; not good karma there. But heaven forbid if the newbie (me) successfully fends him off, he'll never hear the end of that! And I will be ruthless in the forums then <VBEG>  
2) I have found great mentor support here.  So if a big bad vet comes picking on me, I ask a different vet (not in the game of course) for advice on strategy and tactics to counter. That usually at least gives me a small fighting chance.
3) The only way to get really good at this game (steep learning curve where a single miscue can doom 21 turns of otherwise excellent play) is to watch and learn from the vets.  Every trick, trap, and tactic used against me goes into my playbook for future games. So I learn more from a vet tearing into me then another newbie.
4) Even as a newbie I'm still expecting to win against the veterans. Heck I'm expecting to shatter every Alamaze record out there! So the sooner the vets "bring it", the sooner I can tweak my "A" game and get on to most podium finishes for a new player in his first 10 games......ever.  So what is that record by the way?  

I really wish all new players had this approach.  Most the old timers had to learn this exact way and had no mentor or big brother to rely on.  Take your lumps for a few games and figure things out.

[Ry Vor]

As a new player (only 6 weeks in), I can say that I don't mind if veterans come after me even ruthlessly.
Here's why:
1) It's a no win for the veteran.  If he crushes me, it's expected so what has he really achieved? plus he's viewed as a bully who went after a newbie instead of a vet challenge; not good karma there. But heaven forbid if the newbie (me) successfully fends him off, he'll never hear the end of that! And I will be ruthless in the forums then <VBEG>  
2) I have found great mentor support here.  So if a big bad vet comes picking on me, I ask a different vet (not in the game of course) for advice on strategy and tactics to counter. That usually at least gives me a small fighting chance.
3) The only way to get really good at this game (steep learning curve where a single miscue can doom 21 turns of otherwise excellent play) is to watch and learn from the vets.  Every trick, trap, and tactic used against me goes into my playbook for future games. So I learn more from a vet tearing into me then another newbie.
4) Even as a newbie I'm still expecting to win against the veterans. Heck I'm expecting to shatter every Alamaze record out there! So the sooner the vets "bring it", the sooner I can tweak my "A" game and get on to most podium finishes for a new player in his first 10 games......ever.  So what is that record by the way?  

Nice dialogue.  It is difficult to win an Alamaze game of 12 or 15 players.  I hope Alamaze is more than chess in that it is not just about winning.  Again, I designed the freaking thing and have played and only won one game.  There are skills that maybe Jumping Fist may share, but yeah, there are tricks I don't even know about, the diplomacy in open games, but there is a lot of knowing tactics, spells, influence, etc.  So I guess I am saying, new players should not expect victory, nor should veteran players, but all players can get better, as in chess. 

Meanwhile we also introduced Chivalry (+25,000 starting gold) and Feudal Chivalry ( +25,000 gold and first choice on kingdoms in games).  I personally feel that is a minor edge for a new-ish player verses the experience advantage of a champion.  And I hope champions embrace what may become a greater advantage for newer players.  Everyone agrees about growing the player base, I believe.  Until they have the complexity of Alamaze under their belt, so to speak, we lose most new players because they thought they would win in their first game or two, or get a bit mired in the complexity. 

Again, I like our community and its responsiveness to player inquiries on the forum, but I especially appreciate the players that have been mentors in Primeval and Magic games.

And of course, I admire all our volunteer contributors.  Starting with Cipher, or David Pitzel.  And the really impressive stuff that Lord Diamond and Frost Lord did with Valhalla (I turned it over to them), what Bananas has been doing, and obviously, what Uncle Mike has been doing.  Mike's doings should bring us to the next level if The Creator would get into fourth gear.  I've had some stuff going on, but I think I can have most of what I need to get to Mike - maybe not names and art - in the next week, and then he will in 15 minutes have it programmed, and we will start our beta. 

[Lord Diamond]

I'm not one of the great players so I tend to take the most satisfaction from achieving personal goals in a game such as claiming another Valhalla title or simply finishing a game with a new kingdom. Perhaps just finishing better than I did with that kingdom before. I get pretty darn excited about just achieving the podium.

We will never have a complete suite of stats that everyone will love. I think what we offer has something for everyone though. Keep the suggestions coming and we'll see what we can come up with in the next generation of Valhalla.