Game 157 - SVC eligible

[Lord Thanatos]

So what I hear is there should really be two kingdoms starting in Arcanina instead of just one.  Thanks.

Actually, a minimally competent AN player can prevent the DE from controlling the region very quickly.  Intercept a DE group with 2AN, send a Baron to either or both cities, NEGOTIATE with BL and WA seeking to prevent trading pcs turn one, raise influence three times so the DE influence suffers, NEGOTIATE with TR to share Torvale and attack DE, etc...  Also, TR, BL, RA, UN, SO, WA, and GI are often an early problem for the DE as well.  Those two starting cities are fairly attractive turn one options.

[The Broken]

Good idea, you do that your next AN game, see how it works out, and let me know

Once again you're talking about player strategy, I'm talking about game issues. When you want to talk apple to apples let me know.


PS. The correct answer is bigger map.


Also I really do like all the info you have given up in your posts, they are very helpful! So thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on my thoughts, that's how progress works, and I really love your views and ideas on the game!

[kevindusi]

Good idea,  you do that your next AN game, see how it works out, and let me know

Once again you're talking about player strategy, I'm talking about game issues.  When you want to talk apple to apples let me know.


PS.  The correct answer is bigger map.


Also I really do like all the info you have given up in your posts, they are very helpful!  So thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on my thoughts, that's how progress works, and I really love your views and ideas on the game!

Dear Broken,

The correct answer is not a bigger map. We understand that is what you want, because you've posted it over and over and over and over and over and over and over. The correct answer is player strategy, as this is a strategy game. Attempting to play the game without that will end poorly for anyone, regardless of what kingdom they are playing. 

Please look at the standings for DE as a kingdom, and tell me if you really believe the correct answer is a second kingdom in Arcania.

If you want a bigger map, sign up for a primeval game. Very big map.

[The Broken]

Dear Kevin,  (not sure why you started a post like that, I'm assuming to insert smuggness but I'll play

Players should never have to come up with strategy to fix game mechanics.  Players should not be able at all, to take a region in two turns, luck or not, they just shouldn't.  What everyone is suggesting, is that other players should adopt a strategy to stop that, and since you ALL were doing that to me, I figured I'd try it also.

No the answer is not two kingdoms in Arcanina, it's not a better AN player, It's not ANYTHING player related. It is up to making a change to the programming.  And yes I completely disagree with you. ONE of many possible solutions to the issue IS a bigger map.  More space to Place "RANDOM" PC's, so they are harder to find by "luck".  The first solution was to eliminate the HP until turn 4. (why not just order 750).  Well Players got smarter about how to go about it, and now many people take regions on turn 3 (like before) and now Turn 2 because players got better at it, it's what players do, they get better, and when they do adjustments need to be made.

Listen I'm not trying to destroy what people think of as their "Precious"  but start a dialogue, like this, to make changes that might be better long term.  I'm also not trying to convince any player about anything.  The Creator will read, he will note down what he likes from a conversation and he will make changes or he won't.

For example: as posted in a different thread..

Elf Position got better
DW position got better
Exploratory was implemented
New changes to wall of flame
New changes to chaos
New changes to ESO and SVC
RA position got better
on and on, all from posts in this forum all positive changes for the game.

So please stop attacking players when they make or talk about issues, I know it's impossible, and many will say I attacked first.  I attacked the game not a player.  And each example of changes made to the game above was also meet with the same hostility to the original person who brought up the issue in the first place, and most would agree the changed above were positive progress for the game.

[Drogo]

A bigger map is a pretty seismic level change in terms of game design and would influence a lot of different aspects of the game.

Let us also remember that a player controlling a region on turn 2 has happened once. Once.

Broken you do make a good point on how well the game designers take criticisms, observations and suggestions and how this has really served to improve the game. So good on you for raising the issue. It was different (!) to see control happen on T2....

[kevindusi]

Let's see if I can address all your points:

Starting with "Dear Broken" - This was done because I was addressing you directly, and because I felt a need to feel better about myself because all that I seem to see you doing, on any thread on this forum, is bitching about the game. In my mind, it was my equivalent of letting you know that I'd appreciate it if you put your big boy pants on and just play. I probably could have done this better.

"Strategy vs. Game Mechanics" - We are on game 157. We started on game 100. Not counting warlords and titan matches, this means that this is the 58th individual game. Let's pull out a completely random number - say 18 - of anonymous games. That leaves 40 full-diplomacy games, including 2 of which that have been "championship games" that have included the players that, arguably, have the most experience and do the best. Of these approximately 40 games, there has been exactly one (this one) where a player took his region on turn 2. For this, I have three questions, and three proposed answers. 1) Q: Is a 1 in 40 occurrence indicative of a systemic problem? A: No. 2) Q: Is it likely that we will see a sudden flurry of regions being taken on turn 2 because you highlighted this occurrence for all of us to "discuss"? A: No. 3) Q: Would you be whining nearly as much if you were playing a kingdom that didn't suffer a negative impact of this fluke success? A: No.

"Change to programming being the solution" - See above. This has happened exactly once since the game restarted. I am aware of one time that it happened back in the "Phil days". There is not an issue with the program (related to this). There is an issue with your desire to invest time in learning to operate within the parameters of that program. I think your time would be better spent analyzing things similar to how LT did in his post, using information that is available to every player, regardless of tenure or experience. Also, it's Arcania, not Arcanina.

"Dialogue for the creator". I guess here I just don't feel that this is what you are doing... and I'm not the first to notice this. For example: as posted in a different thread... "I guess at this point I am just waiting for your first minimally positive comment. Do you enjoy the game?" Based on your forum activity, I would say that you do not, despite your endorsement of some of the changes.

I apologize for the attacking nature of my post. My (admittedly) weak justification is that you are trying to have something changed that is only an issue because YOU feel it is an issue. Nobody else has ever raise this (that I am aware of) and nobody else is jumping to your defense on this thread. The system isn't destroyed... you just happened to be on the flip side of someone getting a fluke result. Every so often, this is going to happen. There will be times when your agent 19s get caught trying to kidnap an envoy. There will be times when you go 6 for 6 on having emissaries captured when you have pcs attacked. Enemy emissaries will resist sleep spells, and you will get the worst possible modifier on attempted 170s and 330s. This is how it is supposed to work.

I encourage you to, rather than complain about how DE got his region on turn 2, figure out how you can get yours on turn 3. Ask some people for advice if you need it. Just don't assume that because you're on the losing end that something is busted. That's the impression you are giving me.

[The Broken]

A bigger map is a pretty seismic level change in terms of game design.

Let us also remember that a player controlling a region on turn 2 has happened once.  Once.

Great point on both issues!  It would be a very heavy change ( 4th cycle? ) for a bigger map.

Now I have a thought to run by you.  Yes, no one since old alamaze got their region on turn two and It HAS only happened once.   I would suggest, that before, when we had High Priestess from the start, no one would take the risk, and waist 1st turn starting orders to move Emmys into random squares or send out every group searching for PC's or agents searching. They knew the HP would give them what they needed and on turn three everyone would get a region, mostly.  Now that the HP is gone, players got very very crafty, smart and resourceful. Most players take their region on turn 3 as before, and that number will grow as we adapt, and now for the first time turn two.

As pointed out, in diplomacy games one can negotiate, send out troops, use agents and It is now possible to get a region on turn 2, when we had a HP from the start no one would even try. 

The removal of the HP was supposed to slow the game down, but do you think it might be, in practice making it just as fast or maybe faster, as we all get better at adapting? 

Listen if we are all good with the possibility of some players or kingdoms being able to control in two then that great.  Do we think that?

And again I'm not trying to ruin everyones day, just bringing up conversational topics.

[DuPont]

I do not think that the removal of the HP is making the game faster. It's making it slower. More orders are being used up to search for pop centers - orders that would otherwise go to raising agents, wizards or other things. I find in every game now, I have to set aside five orders on turn 1 - Creating a patrol and moving 4 groups. Whereas in the past, I'd sometimes use a free level 1 agent or two to spy on neighboring cities, I no longer have that luxury. Every effort goes into finding pop centers in my region. The one flip side is villages belonging to competitors that would often get ignored in the past now tend to get found and taken.
We are not going to see a rash of players getting regions on turn 2. I did see it happen once back in the old days, but in a recent Warlords game, I controlled three kingdoms and between them they had 3 towns and two villages in a region. I was uncontested for the city. And I still fell short. You have to be very, very lucky. I would argue that the steps needed to go for it are probably not worth taking - sort of double or nothing because you can burn moves on speculation that you could use for sure things. Don't assume that people wouldn't have tried before the HPs were pushed back. People are always trying new and creative things.
Players have always been able to take a region on turn 2. I'm fine with that and I tip my hat to anyone who pulls it off.
As for HPs still being available but no 750 order, what's the point? Early artifact searching? No, I like that nobody starts with one and they have to be bought. Something else that the removal of the HP did is to stop early finding of capitals - a big thing in Warlords/Titan games. That's a plus in my book as well.
I don't want a bigger map - I don't enjoy long searches for pop centers.

[The Broken]

Let's see if I can address all your points:

Starting with "Dear Broken" - This was done because I was addressing you directly, and because I felt a need to feel better about myself because all that I seem to see you doing, on any thread on this forum, is bitching about the game. In my mind, it was my equivalent of letting you know that I'd appreciate it if you put your big boy pants on and just play. I probably could have done this better.

"Strategy vs. Game Mechanics" - We are on game 157. We started on game 100. Not counting warlords and titan matches, this means that this is the 58th individual game. Let's pull out a completely random number - say 18 - of anonymous games. That leaves 40 full-diplomacy games, including 2 of which that have been "championship games" that have included the players that, arguably, have the most experience and do the best. Of these approximately 40 games, there has been exactly one (this one) where a player took his region on turn 2. For this, I have three questions, and three proposed answers. 1) Q: Is a 1 in 40 occurrence indicative of a systemic problem? A: No. 2) Q: Is it likely that we will see a sudden flurry of regions being taken on turn 2 because you highlighted this occurrence for all of us to "discuss"? A: No. 3) Q: Would you be whining nearly as much if you were playing a kingdom that didn't suffer a negative impact of this fluke success? A: No.

"Change to programming being the solution" - See above. This has happened exactly once since the game restarted. I am aware of one time that it happened back in the "Phil days". There is not an issue with the program (related to this). There is an issue with your desire to invest time in learning to operate within the parameters of that program. I think your time would be better spent analyzing things similar to how LT did in his post, using information that is available to every player, regardless of tenure or experience. Also, it's Arcania, not Arcanina.

"Dialogue for the creator". I guess here I just don't feel that this is what you are doing... and I'm not the first to notice this. For example: as posted in a different thread... "I guess at this point I am just waiting for your first minimally positive comment.  Do you enjoy the game?" Based on your forum activity, I would say that you do not, despite your endorsement of some of the changes.

I apologize for the attacking nature of my post. My (admittedly) weak justification is that you are trying to have something changed that is only an issue because YOU feel it is an issue. Nobody else has ever raise this (that I am aware of) and nobody else is jumping to your defense on this thread. The system isn't destroyed... you just happened to be on the flip side of someone getting a fluke result. Every so often, this is going to happen. There will be times when your agent 19s get caught trying to kidnap an envoy. There will be times when you go 6 for 6 on having emissaries captured when you have pcs attacked. Enemy emissaries will resist sleep spells, and you will get the worst possible modifier on attempted 170s and 330s. This is how it is supposed to work.

I encourage you to, rather than complain about how DE got his region on turn 2, figure out how you can get yours on turn 3. Ask some people for advice if you need it. Just don't assume that because you're on the losing end that something is busted. That's the impression you are giving me.

OK, I would have just used the quote reply button, but the "Dear" does give it that old personal touch

I would have jumped all over this if I wasn't even in the this game.  And if my writing gives the impression I hate this game, then why would i want to fix a game I hate, I love this game. I don't think the system is destroyed, we as players got better.

And please don't apologize for your attacking nature, while you are still character attacking me in the same post. "Put your big boy pants on"  "My Whining" "My spelling of R8"

I get the point, i'll stop posting.

[The Broken]

I do not think that the removal of the HP is making the game faster. It's making it slower. More orders are being used up to search for pop centers - orders that would otherwise go to raising agents, wizards or other things. I find in every game now, I have to set aside five orders on turn 1 - Creating a patrol and moving 4 groups. Whereas in the past, I'd sometimes use a free level 1 agent or two to spy on neighboring cities, I no longer have that luxury. Every effort goes into finding pop centers in my region. The one flip side is villages belonging to competitors that would often get ignored in the past now tend to get found and taken.
We are not going to see a rash of players getting regions on turn 2. I did see it happen once back in the old days, but in a recent Warlords game, I controlled three kingdoms and between them they had 3 towns and two villages in a region. I was uncontested for the city. And I still fell short. You have to be very, very lucky. I would argue that the steps needed to go for it are probably not worth taking - sort of double or nothing because you can burn moves on speculation that you could use for sure things. Don't assume that people wouldn't have tried before the HPs were pushed back. People are always trying new and creative things.
Players have always been able to take a region on turn 2. I'm fine with that and I tip my hat to anyone who pulls it off.
As for HPs still being available but no 750 order, what's the point? Early artifact searching? No, I like that nobody starts with one and they have to be bought. Something else that the removal of the HP did is to stop early finding of capitals - a big thing in Warlords/Titan games. That's a plus in my book as well.
I don't want a bigger map - I don't enjoy long searches for pop centers.

Good post!

Now I'm done.