Game 5684

[uncledarkseid]

Turn orders Turn #4 for the Underworld are in.

Might I suggest an easy target for you?  I captured the Free traders capital last turn and all of his top agents. His new capital is right next to you at area TE. He should have only one agent there and it is low level.  He will also have a duke and a count there. Great way to improve your agents (bribe, assassinate, steal gold or food or mithril, while they cannot train.  Recon or raven the area and have fun next turn!

[Maximus Dominus]

I hate to do it, but I think I will sell 80k food this turn for 40k gold.  Any interest?

I appreciate the offer, but reality being what it is, I don't have forty thousand gold available to allocate for food.

My turn orders are already issued for Turn #4, but the Verify Orders button informs me that my kingdom will have only a mere 36 gold left, after my turn orders are processed. I wouldn't normally share a tidbit like that, but honestly, Jon, this meager amount is too funny not to share.

Separate and apart from that, I remember back when trying Fall of Rome, that my kingdoms were always poverty stricken. At least with Alamaze, if memory serves me correctly, you don't have to actually worry about your kingdom becoming bankrupt. In my past browsing of the Alamaze forum, and observing various trades being agreed upon by players, the economics of Alamaze are interesting, if they are anything at all. Many experienced players have a knack for transforming their kingdoms into economic powerhouses. It's really quite something to marvel at.

On the other hand, as players fortunes of war sour, and as they lose pop centers and spiral towards their eventual demise, it's not unduly difficult to imagine scenarios where players simply can't afford to fund what some might deem to be basic missions. Of course, if a player's economy was humming for a bit, and they were really raking in the gold and the food and the Mithril, then it's foreseeable that they could continue milking the trade cow to obtain whatever gold or food or Mithril that they needed to soldier on.

[Maximus Dominus]

Might I suggest an easy target for you?  I captured the Free traders capital last turn and all of his top agents. His new capital is right next to you at area TE. He should have only one agent there and it is low level.  He will also have a duke and a count there. Great way to improve your agents (bribe, assassinate, steal gold or food or mithril, while they cannot train.  Recon or raven the area and have fun next turn!

Ah, the esteemed Darkseid speaks!

And now the coin is flipped, and the shoe is on the other foot, as the old saying goes. Here's the thing, from a fairly inexperienced player's perspective.

How does one know - actually know - truth from fiction, in the immediate here and now? This isn't an uncledarkseid issue, per se, but rather, I have no way of knowing with absolute certainty at this particular moment in time whether hat you say is true, false, or some combination of the to.

According to the map that I made for myself at the beginning of this game, the Free Traders are ruled by player Rellgar. Is that someone that I want to mess with? Then again, is there any really experienced player that I, as a relative newcomer, want to tangle with, and to alienate so early in this stage of this particular game of Alamaze?

If the Free Trader player is now as bad off as you suggest (which might explain the urgency of his own recent post, wherein he said, "All the evil red dragon is taking over the Crown Islands. Has nothing in the south except emissaries,") then pouring salt into the wounds he has already suffered might very well be sufficient to turn his gaze from thee to me, Darkseid.

Of course, the iron helm of curiosity begs to wonder aloud how the feared Rellgar, whose reputation precedes him in Alamaze, has managed to allow himself to find his kingdom in such seemingly dire straits, already, with only three turns having actually transpired in full, thus far? And if true, then is facilitating the demise of Rellgar in the interests of my humble kingdom? For here is where the axe falls - how does a new or inexperienced player to know which path to take, in instances such as the current one? My judgment aided by familiarity is not yet in full bloom, and so I find myself torn over what to do, over which course of action - if any - to pursue, though I hear your call most loud and clear?

[Maximus Dominus]

Behold, two calls for action have been heard in the realm of the Underworld!

FT-All the evil red dragon is taking over the Crown Islands.  Has nothing in the south except emissaries.

Might I suggest an easy target for you?  I captured the Free traders capital last turn and all of his top agents. His new capital is right next to you at area TE. He should have only one agent there and it is low level.  He will also have a duke and a count there. Great way to improve your agents (bribe, assassinate, steal gold or food or mithril, while they cannot train.  Recon or raven the area and have fun next turn!

One raises the alarum for action, urging other realms to become cognizant of the threat posed by the forces of the Red Dragon, even as the other "suggests" that Underworld agents be sent afoot, to harry remnants of the Free Traders' assets.

"In the South" says nothing, really, for it lacks any real degree of actionable specificity. On the other hand, the map area of TE gorges itself with specificity, and what is specificity, if it is not temptation, itself?

And the nature of this particular game of Alamaze is that all communications between and amongst players have to be carried out in this forum, under the open eyes of all players, including the two parties who are already in conflict with one another.

For my own part, as I reference anew the UN5684Setup.html file that accompanied my ascension to the Underworld Throne of Thrones, I find the following:

Specialized Traits For Our Kingdom:
The following traits provide special and unique bonuses for our kingdom. These effects are inherent and do not require specific action to enable unless otherwise specified in the section below.
Type                         Name
Cultural                     Evil

Thus, should I sally forth to aid one in need? Or should I add to the burdens of one already under siege?

My kingdom, it would seem, falls properly within the ambit of evil. Evil is the nature of the Underworld, is it not? But the nature of a kingdom and the nature of a player are not one and the same necessarily, are they?

Is evil not also a cultural trait of the Red Dragon? The Free Traders, by comparison, suffer under a cultural trait of Heroic, do they not? If only it were truly that simple.

And such is the vat of dilemma that one can fall into, if one is not careful enough.

[Jon Deaux]

Might I suggest an easy target for you?  I captured the Free traders capital last turn and all of his top agents. His new capital is right next to you at area TE. He should have only one agent there and it is low level.  He will also have a duke and a count there. Great way to improve your agents (bribe, assassinate, steal gold or food or mithril, while they cannot train.  Recon or raven the area and have fun next turn!

Ah, the esteemed Darkseid speaks!

And now the coin is flipped, and the shoe is on the other foot, as the old saying goes. Here's the thing, from a fairly inexperienced player's perspective.

How does one know - actually know - truth from fiction, in the immediate here and now? This isn't an uncledarkseid issue, per se, but rather, I have no way of knowing with absolute certainty at this particular moment in time whether hat you say is true, false, or some combination of the to.

According to the map that I made for myself at the beginning of this game, the Free Traders are ruled by player Rellgar. Is that someone that I want to mess with? Then again, is there any really experienced player that I, as a relative newcomer, want to tangle with, and to alienate so early in this stage of this particular game of Alamaze?

If the Free Trader player is now as bad off as you suggest (which might explain the urgency of his own recent post, wherein he said, "All the evil red dragon is taking over the Crown Islands. Has nothing in the south except emissaries," then pouring salt into the wounds he has already suffered might very well be sufficient to turn his gaze from thee to me, Darkseid.

Of course, the iron helm of curiosity begs to wonder aloud how the feared Rellgar, whose reputation precedes him in Alamaze, has managed to allow himself to find his kingdom in such seemingly dire straits, already, with only three turns having actually transpired in full, thus far? And if true, then is facilitating the demise of Rellgar in the interests of my humble kingdom? For here is where the axe falls - how does a new or inexperienced player to know which path to take, in instances such as the current one? My judgment aided by familiarity is not yet in full bloom, and so I find myself torn over what to do, over which course of action - if any - to pursue, though I hear your call most loud and clear?

Anyone can easily fall early victim to the speedy and mighty Red Dragon Kingdom.  In fact, unless you plan specifically for it, it's almost a forgone conclusion.  I recently eliminated an experienced player by turn 6, (or rather, was about to do so much damage he dropped the game before his fate befell him.) in my RD game.

I'm surprised, and pleased actually, that players are actually encouraging intervention.  Getting involved in someone else's battle used to be something that was looked sideways at.  However, as you so eloquently stated, attempting to take advantage of the RDs absence of troops in his starting region might be foolhardy.  You risk becoming the next victim, and we all know how fast those troops actually are.

[Brekk]

AN - LY  Please relay location of town for trade, you can do it after this turn runs.  I will swoop in on turn 6 I think.

AN - HA  A bit of luck landing on your hidden village, I will leave it alone.  In return perhaps you can spare a village or town on or bordering the Endless Sea?  Assuming you have more than one of course.

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I usually leave it as a standing order and build the guild. You can cancel the order and use him to steal food or gold if it takes a few turns to build?

Can't build the Thieves Guild, as one must build a Bazaar, first. (Boo! Hiss! Hiss!)

I wonder why the UN5684Setup.html file didn't mention either a Bazaar or a Thieves Guild, as that's fairly relevant information, provided an Underworld player doesn't want to end up behind the 8-Ball on the training of its agents to higher levels. The end result is that now, my Level 9 agent will have to not train to a higher level for two turns. Not exactly a motivator. This is a good example of how to generate a loss of interest in players.

I agree this requirement of a bazaar before a thieves guild always bugged me too.

LY -- > AN

I have a village at UF all ready for you, take whenever you like.

[Jon Deaux]

AN - LY   A village, hm, well, this is not exactly a fair trade.  You cannot fortify a village, so I offer the following:

I'll take your town and give you a village location that is coastal to Azure.

or

Give me a town location that is coastal to Sorrows.

[Maximus Dominus]

LY --> AN
I have a coastal town, I'm interested in keeping.  Willing to trade a coastal town/village in my region.

AN - LY  Please relay location of town for trade, you can do it after this turn runs.  I will swoop in on turn 6 I think.

I have a village at UF all ready for you, take whenever you like.

So, I tracked this particular thread of dialogue back to its origin (I think that I did, anyway), and it got me to wondering - is this typical for most games of Alamaze?

Even before wars begin and survival become an actual issue, kingdoms are already well on their way to bartering their kingdoms' population centers away? Is barter, whether in the form of trades of gold, food, and Mithril, or in the form of population centers, the "grand strategy" of the game that is Alamaze? Does no one ever fight to the death over every last population center under their control?

I grasp that pop centers that start in regions other than where a given kingdom's main holdings reside can be difficult, if not impossible, to defend. But if players are going to simply trade them away, anyway, then why start said pop centers in those other regions to begin with? This isn't a knock against Jon Deaux or Brekk. Rather, their brief exchange in this discussion thread simply serves as the spark for my inquiry into the matter on a larger scale.

I did an electronic search for all instances of the word "Trade" in the 4th Cycle Rulebook, just now, and unless I inadvertently missed something, for all of the talk about trade in the rulebook (and there is much - including things such as certain weapons that cannot be traded), the rulebook seems to be conspicuously missing on the subject of players trading population centers with one another. Granted, kingdoms still have to go through the motions, but tell me this, if you will - but how do new players, who are relying upon the rulebook to inform them on how to play the game, supposed to discern from the rules that trading of population centers is allowed? Yes, they could pick up on it in the forum, but what if they only wanted to play the game, but not use the Alamaze forum?

And games where communication between players is forbidden (if there be such games of Alamaze), do experienced players still trade pop centers in a manner to how they routinely do it in games of Alaamze that allow for communication between players?

[Maximus Dominus]

AN - LY   A village, hm, well, this is not exactly a fair trade.  You cannot fortify a village, so I offer the following:

I'll take your town and give you a village location that is coastal to Azure.

or

Give me a town location that is coastal to Sorrows.

Eh? What's that?!? Well, that's certainly one way to get a fellow's attention, huh?

What good can possibly come from the Ancient Ones worming their way upon The Sorrows? Surely, intrigue is afoot! While it is unlikely that the famed and hyper-experienced Jon Deaux sees the inexperienced player that I am as a threat of note, my Underworld kingdom is already bordered by such Alamaze players of legend as uncledarkseid, Brek, and DuPont.

Since Jon Deaux is seeking to cut a deal with Brek and his dread Lycans, then clearly, the Lycans are not his target nor his raison d'être for such a move westward. That leaves the Red Dragon, the Giants, or the Underworld as the most likely candidates for apple of Jon Deaux's eye.

[Jon Deaux]

I'm not sure how common it is for people to trade PCs, I've been ignoring that kind of cooperation for years. But in light of our conversation, I thought I would entertain the request.  I'm trying to promote no rules and therefore will be more amenable to the idea that if two people want to come to an agreement it should be between those two people.

As for my offer to the Halfling, here is what happened... The Halfling starts with both of his villages hidden with a glyph of concealment, but upon scouring my region for PCs, I stumbled upon his the only way possible, by stopping a group directly on top of it.  Bad luck for him.  I offered for him to keep his invisible village if he gives me one in his region.  The only one I might be interested in is one that allows me to have a merchant fleet in Endless.  IF HE ignores my request, I'll be grabbing his village hint, hint.

As for your concern, the key word is "merchant" fleet.  You can easily tell a merchant fleet because it is built of minimum quality ships.  Not exactly nothing to worry about, but the quality is an indication of intent.

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Oh right, you are in Zamora.  So, you are worried about Sorrows not Endless.  Well, same deal, just looking for a merchant fleet.

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Oh and the AN is not exactly cut out to be an early aggressor (military-wise anyway), paired with the fact that I almost never attack someone before they attack me, you can be pretty sure that the AN will sit around and not do much for 20 turns in this game.