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Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-29-2025, 03:08 PM by Olorin.)

Here, I will try to post the various brigade ratings. Each type will have the original ratings, the actual rating and then the new proposed rating. First everyone needs the system for those ratings.

absent Zero. Nothing.
Not A factor -200% to down to Zero
Very Poor: -175% to -199%
Poor: -100% to -174%
Below Ave.: -40% to -99%
Average: -39% to +29%
Above Ave. +30% to +39%
Good: +40% to +79%
very good: +80% to +99%
Excellent: +100% to +174%
Superior: +175% to +199%
Renowned +200% to +299%
Awesome +300% to +399%
Ultimate +400% upwards

These are based on the median Brigades for each combat Rating (long range, short range, etc.).
Long Range = LR. Short Range = SR. Charge = CH. Melee 1 = M1. Melee 2 =M2. Combined = CO. Defense = DE Storm = ST

Let us start with the Alchemist:

As per rules, actual, proposed
LR: Average, Average, Average
SR: Average, Below average, Average
CH: Average, Average, Average
M1: Above Average, Average, Average
M2: Average, Below average, Below Average
CO: Average, Below Average, Below Average
DE: Average, Below Average, Below Average
ST: Average, Below Average, Poor

davekuyk · 07-29-2025, 06:13 PM

Thanks for the info Olorin, appreciate it!

Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-30-2025, 03:03 AM by Olorin.)

Next up, Amazons. Sorry about the delay on this. RL issues keep claiming time.

As per the rules, Actual, Proposed
LR:Good, Good, Excellent
SR:Good, Above Average, Very Good
CH:Very Good, Very Good, Very Good
M1:Above Average, Good, Average
M2:Above average, Average, Average
CO:Above Average, Good, Average
DE:Average, Average, Below Average
ST:Above Average, Average, Average

BTW, I am not faulting anybody. Our thought was that at one point the ratings were accurate, but with adding all the new brigades the ratings slowly slipped. Then got worse with each new change. So now we are fixing them all and adjusting to where we thought each type should look strong relative to the others. Which is why Brekk is asking for feedback. Are we close to what you would expect? Should we shift some rating a bit?

I am just trying to let you guys see what we saw when we worked on these.

Ancient Ones:
Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR: Good, Good, Excellent
SR: Above Average, Average, Excellent
CH: Above Average, Average, Below Average
M1: Above Average. Good, Average
M2: Above Average, Average, Average
CO: Above Average, Average, Average
DE: Above Average, Average, Average
ST: Average, Average, Below Average

You can certainly argue us into changing a rating for good or bad. But you have to give us a reason! Why are Ancient Ones better or worse at Charging than we gave them?

Apes (10).
First Companion Brigade. As an example of what we were thinking. Apes can throw stuff. Where were they going to get long range from? So no. Throwing rocks is not very great either. They have some small shock value. Not a lot of armor either, though they move fast. The number in parentheses is the number raised.

Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR: Very Poor, Poor, Absent
SR: Below Average, Poor, Poor
CH: Above Average, Above Average, Average
M1: Above Average, Good, Above Average
M2: Above Average, Good, Average
CO: Above Average, Average, Average
DE: Average, Average, Below Average
ST: Average, Average, Average

Atlanteans:
Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR: Very Good, Very Good, Excellent
SR: Above Average, Average, Very Good
CH: Average, Below Average, Average
M1: Above Average, Good, Average
M2: Above Average, Average, Average
CO: Above Average, Average, Average
DE: Above Average, Average, Average
ST: Average, Average, Below Average

Xerro · 07-30-2025, 03:10 AM

This is much easier to see and understand and gives a better oppurtunity for people to make beneficial suggestions. Also the rational on how and why they were changed is a wonderful touch. Couple of quick questions.
1. Did all the force multipliers IE apes bonus in forest stay the same. I believe from things said that is the case.
2. for missile values it was stataed they were increased. Is the base missile damage for all increased? or is it just increased for units like elves that should have larger numbers? Is it a blanket increase or on a case by case basis?

Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-30-2025, 03:22 AM by Olorin.)

Beholder [1]:
This one was wild. Beholders were created by Gygax in D&D. They have NOTHING long range. Anyway, look at the actual ratings and remember this one has a bunch of magic effects as well. It's Defense rating was actually the 2nd worst in the game.

LR: Good, Ultimate, Absent
SR: Above Average, Awesome, Renowned
CH: Very Poor, Poor, Poor
M1: Average, Excellent, Above Average
M2: Below Average, Average, Average
CO: Below Average, Poor, Average
DE: Below Average, Poor, Poor
ST: Below Average, Average, Average

(07-30-2025, 03:10 AM)Xerro Wrote: This is much easier to see and understand and gives a better oppurtunity for people to make beneficial suggestions. Also the rational on how and why they were changed is a wonderful touch. Couple of quick questions.
1. Did all the force multipliers IE apes bonus in forest stay the same. I believe from things said that is the case.
2. for missile values it was stataed they were increased. Is the base missile damage for all increased? or is it just increased for units like elves that should have larger numbers? Is it a blanket increase or on a case by case basis?

1: Yes. Those are part of the programming, things we cannot work on. (Brekk is trying to work on them with someone else but it requires doing all the coding so that will take some time longer.)
2: Yes for all. We moved the base up and so it raised everybody. Though if we downgraded their ranged attack it may balance out.

**Mauler** · 07-30-2025, 03:27 AM

If I may make a suggestion to help the weighting evaluations.
Reinforcement schedule and terrain adjustments would also inform the rating system. As those of a certain age will remember with the Urik and more recently with the Fairies, heavy reinforcement schedules can offset (or at least compensate for) subpar brigade values.

Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-30-2025, 07:42 PM by Olorin.)

(07-30-2025, 03:27 AM)Mauler Wrote: If I may make a suggestion to help the weighting evaluations.
Reinforcement schedule and terrain adjustments would also inform the rating system. As those of a certain age will remember with the Urik and more recently with the Fairies, heavy reinforcement schedules can offset (or at least compensate for) subpar brigade values.

This particular series is the individual brigades ratings. What you are referring to is what I would call balance issues. And, yes, those will need to be taken into account for the over-all game. From what everybody said in the poll we will likely be working on Reinforcement schedules and Companions [and Summons] next. Which is another reason to post these (there are 102 Brigades) so we can get comments and finalize the ratings before we balance them with Companions/Summoned.

Next up, Black Dragons:

Yes, Black Dragons got shafted a bit. One of the things we noticed when we got into the nitty-gritty parts of the game was that Defense was REALLY important. With that in mind, Black Dragons are not supposed to fight as well as Red, but everything going into the Defense rating for the two really should be the same. So we really did not change a lot, except to have the Black match the Red's defense rating. Which should make a fairly big difference.
As Always:
Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR:Above Average, Average, Above Average
SR:Good, Above Average, Very Good
CH:Excellent, Excellent, Good
M1:Average, Below average, Above Average
M2:Above Average, Average, Average
CO:Above Average, Above Average, Above Average
DE:Good, Good, Awesome
ST:Good, Excellent, Excellent

Centaurs [10]:
This one was a bit of a debate between SR and CH. We decided to go with archery, partially so we could have a decent archer-type Companion. And, be honest, how many horses have you seen climb walls?

Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR:Good, Good, Good
SR:Above Average, Average, Good
CH:Above Average, Average, Average
M1:Average, Below Average, Below Average
M2:Average, Below Average, Poor
CO:Average, Average, Below Average
DE:Above Average, Average, Average
ST:Average, Below Average, Poor

davekuyk · 07-30-2025, 07:56 PM

A decent archer-type Companion is Wood Elves. I have a hard time seeing Centaurs as average charge. I do agree they should be poor at storming PCs.

Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-30-2025, 08:54 PM by Olorin.)

Chameleons [10]:
Our thought with these is they are ambush troops. They spring up and inflict damage. So they would inflict damage at the start of a battle, but there is no mechanism for that so we just moved most of their damage to the first damage phase.

Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR:Average, Average, Excellent
SR:Average, Average, Average
CH:Average, Below Average, Below Average
M1:Average, Poor, Poor
M2:Above Average, Average, Very Poor
CO:Average, Below Average, Poor
DE:Above Average, Average, Average
ST:Average, Average, Below Average

(07-30-2025, 07:56 PM)davekuyk Wrote: A decent archer-type Companion is Wood Elves. I have a hard time seeing Centaurs as average charge. I do agree they should be poor at storming PCs.

Wood Elves come in at Renowned-Excellent, much better than decent. And I do like the 'wild-charging' centaur image so we can do a bit of work on that. I will point out that the actual current rating for their charge is Average.

Olorin · (This post was last modified: 07-30-2025, 09:50 PM by Olorin.)

Back to the Kingdoms again, with Cimmerians:
Howard wrote these as mountain-climbing, sword-swinging bad-asses. So pretty good at climbing walls and close battle. Not so much at shooting things. They do not like armor but can take a blow and keep coming. So that was what we aimed at. What it already was was consistently underrated.

Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR:Very Poor, Poor, Below Average
SR:Average, Average, Below Average
CH:Excellent, Excellent, Good
M1:Good, Superior, Superior
M2:Good, Excellent, Renowned
CO:Good, Excellent, Excellent
DE:Above Average, Good, Good
ST:Good, Excellent, Excellent

Chimera [3]:
This one was interesting. A dragon head, a lion head and a goat head with a scaly body. It has 3 magic attacks, pow-2 Firestrike and Chaos and a 'whatever-level your wizard is' Guarded Attack. Nothing in there to make me think of a ranged attack, maybe a few stones dropped on your head? Probably an ungainly flyer at that. But once it gets close, ouch. It is unique to Fairy Folk and the FF need some help, so we upped them to 3. This may be a mistake, we will see.

Posted, Actual, Proposed
LR:Good, Good, Absent
SR:Above Average, Average, Poor
CH:Excellent, Excellent, Excellent
M1:Good, Excellent, Excellent
M2:Above Average, Average, Excellent
CO:Good, Very Good, Excellent
DE:Excellent, Superior, Renowned
ST:Good, Excellent, Excellent

Part of what is going on is we are trying to maintain parity with the numbers given for each Brigade, so when we take away some numbers [like for LR], we try to add those back in in other areas that make more sense. As an example, the Chimera lost in LR and SR, so we gave better numbers to Melee 2 and Combined. It also works in reverse, so when we balance the Centaurs we have to consider where we take numbers from. Which is why we made a decision between SR and CH. Now we might take some LR and add it into the CH instead. Or just move them up the scale in how much power they have, but then reduce the number you can recruit. It is a balancing act.