Game 5684

[Maximus Dominus]

Also, the rate limiting factor on how many Agents will be useful is the order limit.  I think you will find if you hire 20 agents, most of them will never be used.  It is always good to have maybe half a dozen more than you think you might need on standing order to train, to fill in for loses.  In fact, you should probably have every possible standing order used on training agents.  20 might be OK, more than that is probably pushing the useful limit.

You're probably right. I was just exploring possibilities in my mind, as they came to me.

I don't have a perfect record on Standing Orders, but for the most part, I have been using them to Train To Higher Level. A couple of different turns, I didn't max out my use of Standing Orders due to oversights on my part as a player, and more recently, I had to cancel a Standing Order, in order to use an agent that I was continuously raising the level of for a different purpose.

It's difficult, lacking a range of experience, to perceive how my kingdom is doing, relative to how all of the other kingdoms in the game are doing. Brekk and his Lycans are right next door to me, and he keeps on training agents like crazy, so far, and that in turn makes me wonder that maybe I should be training more and more agents, just to try and keep up. He may or may not go to war with me, at some point in the future (so could anyone else, for that matter), and other than train, train, train my own agent corps, I don't really know what I should actually do to try and prepare for whatever kingdom eventually heads my way. For the most part, my focus so far has been largely oriented towards lifting the fog of war that shrouds what's out there from my view. I've made some success, but I would characterize it at modest, at best. Not knowing where anything is at game start, other than the Major Cities that appear on the map unencumbered by the fog of war, leaves me wondering where to start, where to go, and what to do.

The discussion thread, here isn't exactly overflowing with postings, so it's hard to glean much from it that might be useful to me. I realize that kingdoms like to keep their secrets, but the flip side of that coin is that less postings tend to equate less learning from the less experienced.

My current position is actually the best that I've ever fared in either or both Fall of Rome and Alamaze. My kingdom isn't bordering on bankruptcy, my gold supply is slowly but surely growing (at least, until some other kingdom begins to lower the hammer on me. Trying to raise some troops, this turn, didn't work. So, I allocated those turn orders to other things. Am I neglecting my armies and leaders and wizards too much? Probably, but this kingdom's bread and butter design element seems to be agents, so that's primarily what I have been doing on the character end of things.

[Strylian]

Also, the rate limiting factor on how many Agents will be useful is the order limit.  I think you will find if you hire 20 agents, most of them will never be used.  It is always good to have maybe half a dozen more than you think you might need on standing order to train, to fill in for loses.  In fact, you should probably have every possible standing order used on training agents.  20 might be OK, more than that is probably pushing the useful limit.

---

AN - HA  well, I one of us is having trouble with directions, my Baron got lost.  Can you just relay the location?

---

AN - DK  You might play host to one of my Emissaries next turn, pay him no mind he is passing through.

HA - AN I didn't see this, sorry. It is hard to keep up with all the posts on this thread. The actual information is getting buried. lol Location is QV. I will tax it next turn so you can take it.

[Maximus Dominus]

The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #1
Ancient Ones = 1
Dark Elven = 3
Deathknights = 2
Elementalist = 1
Free Traders = 3
Giants - 2
Halfling = 4
Lizard Men = 1
Lycans = 6
Red Dragon = 1
TOTAL = 24


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #2
Ancient Ones = 1
Dark Elven = 2
Halfling = 5
Lycans = 4
Lizard Men = 3
Giants = 1
TOTAL = 16


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #3
Ancient Ones = 1
Dark Elven = 1
Halflings = 1
Lizard Men = 2
Lycans = 4
TOTAL = 9


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #4
Dark Elven = 2
Lycans = 6
Lizard Men = 2
Sorcerer = 1
TOTAL = 11


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #5
Dark Elven = 4
Deathknights = 2
Giants = 1
Halflings = 1
Lizard Men = 2
Lycans = 8
Red Dragon = 1
TOTAL = 19


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #6
Dark Elven = 5
Deathknights = 4
Free Traders = 1
Giants = 1
Halflings = 3
Lizard Men = 1
Lycans = 8
Red Dragon = 2
Sorcerer = 1
TOTAL = 26


The Training of Agents by Kingdom for Turn #7
Ancient Ones = 1
Dark Elven = 3
Deathknights = 4
Elementalist = 3
Free Traders = 1
Halflings = 5
Lizard Men = 2
Lycans = 8
Red Dragon = 2
Sorcerer = 2
TOTAL = 31


Total Training of Agents (minus the Underworld) to date (as of the end of Turn #7):
Ancient Ones = 4
Dark Elven = 20
Deathknights = 12
Elementalist = 4
Free Traders = 5
Giants = 5
Halfling = 19
Lizard Men = 13
Lycans = 44
Red Dragon = 6
Sorcerer = 4
TOTAL = 136

[Maximus Dominus]

So, looking at the training of agents data kept track of, so far, let's take a closer look at the Lycans (werewolves), since they seem to be going all hog wild crazy with their training of agents.

Here is a quick glance at the reports on the training of agents that the Underworld player received for the first 7 turns of Game 5684, where the Lycans are concerned:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
---------------------------
6 - 4 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 8

The Set-Up html file for the Underworld (UN5684Setup.html) says:

The Underworld has great control over the hiring and training of agents throughout Alamaze. In game terms, this is reflected by the Underworld receiving 1,500 gold each time an agent is hired and each time an agent or fanatic is trained.


Now, whenever I, as the Underworld player, receives the following message in my turn results:

Royal Palace          We added to our treasury by virtue of gold the Lycans spent training an agent.


QUESTION: Does that message refer only to the training of agents? QUESTION: Or does it also encompass the both the hiring and the training of Lycan agents?


The Lycan Set-Up html file (LYSetup.html), which is available here, along with all other kingdom Set-Up files in one zipped file, states:

Begins with an additional level 6 agent and level 3 agent at the capital. 


This, however, doesn't inform me what the base starting number of characters is for all kingdoms.

Another item of interest about the Lycans, the ones doing all of this training of agents in Game 5684, is the following (again from the Lycan Set-Up html file):

Any failed covert operations by opposing agents have a 33% chance of being infected with lycanthrope. If the mission result of an enemy agent is to be captured/killed, they are instead bitten and join the Lycan kingdom with full rank and level.  


So, beyond the rapid training of agents that the Lycan kingdom (and other Lycan kingdoms in other games of Alamaze) is doing in this game, all of that is towards a larger end - namely, the ability to acquire the agents of kingdoms other than their own, also. Well, no shit, huh, Sherlock?

"My, what big teeth you have," said Red Riding Hood.


Let's look at the Lycans' training of agents, again, thus far this game:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
---------------------------
6 - 4 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 8


If the Lycan player (Brekk) started with one Level 6 agent, then that character is likely at Level 13, now.

After 7 turns being processed, with 44 agent trainings to the Lycans' credit, so far, that leaves us with the following formula:

44 - 7 = 37 agent trainings unaccounted for.


If the Lycans' training of agents messages that I've been receiving as the Underworld player on my kingdom's turn results refers only to the training of existing agents, and doesn't include any hiring of new agents,


The Underworld Set-Up file says:

Begins with an additional level 6 agent and level 3 agent at the capital. 


So, if I remove one Level 6 agent and one Level 3 agent from the Underworld's starting list of agents from the Turn #0 Underworld report (UN5684R0.html), then the Underworld started with the following agents/fanatics:

Level 4 agent(s) = 1

Level 3 agent(s) = 1

Level 2 agent(s) = 2
             
Level 2 fanatic(s) = 1

Level 1 agent(s) = 1

But having never played as the Lycans, before, I don't know for absolute certain how many agents that the Lycan position starts the game with. Even still, it's a safe better, I think, to assume that the Lycan player in game 5684 would train all of his highest level starting agents, and maybe even his lowest starting agents, as well.

Thus, assuming that the Lycans start with a similar number of agents as the Underworld, the Lycans other starting agents might well now look something like this:


Level 4 agent(s) = Now a Level 11 agent. (37 - 7 = 30)

Level 3 agent(s) = Now a Level 10 agent. (30 - 7 = 23)

Level 2 agent(s) = Now a Level 9 agent. (23 - 7 = 16)
             
Level 2 fanatic(s) = Now a Level 9 agent. (16 - 7 = 9)

Level 1 agent(s) = Now a Level 8 agent. (9 - 7 = 2)

Thus, leaving us with just 2 of those 44 agent trainings, to date, unaccounted for. But those 2 agent trainings still have to be accounted for, somehow. But would I have received a message about agents being hired, instead of trained? If not, then the Lycan player may have hire one new agent, and had that agent to train twice, which would bring that agent to level 3, now, or maybe Brekk hired two new agents (that my Underworld turn reports can account for), which means that both could be Level 2 agents, now.

While it is pure speculation and guesswork on my part (subject to error, most assuredly), I'm guessing that the Lycans cast of agents/fanatics in game 5684 looks something like this,
now:

Level 13 agent
Level 11 agent
Level 10 agent
Level 9 agent
Level 9 fanatic
Level 8 agent
Level 3 agent
Level 2 agent
TOTAL NUMBER OF ACTIVE LYCANS AGENTS/FANATICS AS OF THE END OF TURN #7 = 8
(NOTE: Not counting any additional agents gained via transforming other kingdoms' agents/fanatics into werewolves!)


. . .or. . .


Level 13 agent
Level 11 agent
Level 10 agent
Level 9 agent
Level 9 fanatic
Level 8 agent
Level 3 agent
Level 1 agent
Level 1 agent 
TOTAL NUMBER OF ACTIVE LYCANS AGENTS/FANATICS AS OF THE END OF TURN #7 = 9
(NOTE: Not counting any additional agents gained via transforming other kingdoms' agents/fanatics into werewolves!) 


Hopefully, either Brekk (the Lycan player, himself) or others of you experienced Alamaze veterans can do me the courtesy of correcting my attempt at doing the agent math on the Lycan kingdom in this game, through Turn #7.

What am I missing or getting wrong? Am I way out in proverbial left field, somewhere?

[uncledarkseid]

So, looking at the training of agents data kept track of, so far, let's take a closer look at the Lycans (werewolves), since they seem to be going all hog wild crazy with their training of agents.

Here is a quick glance at the reports on the training of agents that the Underworld player received for the first 7 turns of Game 5684, where the Lycans are concerned:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
---------------------------
6 - 4 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 8

The Set-Up html file for the Underworld (UN5684Setup.html) says:

The Underworld has great control over the hiring and training of agents throughout Alamaze. In game terms, this is reflected by the Underworld receiving 1,500 gold each time an agent is hired and each time an agent or fanatic is trained.


Now, whenever I, as the Underworld player, receives the following message in my turn results:

Royal Palace          We added to our treasury by virtue of gold the Lycans spent training an agent.


QUESTION: Does that message refer only to the training of agents? QUESTION: Or does it also encompass the both the hiring and the training of Lycan agents?


The Lycan Set-Up html file (LYSetup.html), which is available here, along with all other kingdom Set-Up files in one zipped file, states:

Begins with an additional level 6 agent and level 3 agent at the capital. 


This, however, doesn't inform me what the base starting number of characters is for all kingdoms.

Another item of interest about the Lycans, the ones doing all of this training of agents in Game 5684, is the following (again from the Lycan Set-Up html file):

Any failed covert operations by opposing agents have a 33% chance of being infected with lycanthrope. If the mission result of an enemy agent is to be captured/killed, they are instead bitten and join the Lycan kingdom with full rank and level.  


So, beyond the rapid training of agents that the Lycan kingdom (and other Lycan kingdoms in other games of Alamaze) is doing in this game, all of that is towards a larger end - namely, the ability to acquire the agents of kingdoms other than their own, also. Well, no shit, huh, Sherlock?

"My, what big teeth you have," said Red Riding Hood.


Let's look at the Lycans' training of agents, again, thus far this game:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
---------------------------
6 - 4 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 8


If the Lycan player (Brekk) started with one Level 6 agent, then that character is likely at Level 13, now.

After 7 turns being processed, with 44 agent trainings to the Lycans' credit, so far, that leaves us with the following formula:

44 - 7 = 37 agent trainings unaccounted for.


If the Lycans' training of agents messages that I've been receiving as the Underworld player on my kingdom's turn results refers only to the training of existing agents, and doesn't include any hiring of new agents,


The Underworld Set-Up file says:

Begins with an additional level 6 agent and level 3 agent at the capital. 


So, if I remove one Level 6 agent and one Level 3 agent from the Underworld's starting list of agents from the Turn #0 Underworld report (UN5684R0.html), then the Underworld started with the following agents/fanatics:

Level 4 agent(s) = 1

Level 3 agent(s) = 1

Level 2 agent(s) = 2
             
Level 2 fanatic(s) = 1

Level 1 agent(s) = 1

But having never played as the Lycans, before, I don't know for absolute certain how many agents that the Lycan position starts the game with. Even still, it's a safe better, I think, to assume that the Lycan player in game 5684 would train all of his highest level starting agents, and maybe even his lowest starting agents, as well.

Thus, assuming that the Lycans start with a similar number of agents as the Underworld, the Lycans other starting agents might well now look something like this:


Level 4 agent(s) = Now a Level 11 agent. (37 - 7 = 30)

Level 3 agent(s) = Now a Level 10 agent. (30 - 7 = 23)

Level 2 agent(s) = Now a Level 9 agent. (23 - 7 = 16)
             
Level 2 fanatic(s) = Now a Level 9 agent. (16 - 7 = 9)

Level 1 agent(s) = Now a Level 8 agent. (9 - 7 = 2)

Thus, leaving us with just 2 of those 44 agent trainings, to date, unaccounted for. But those 2 agent trainings still have to be accounted for, somehow. But would I have received a message about agents being hired, instead of trained? If not, then the Lycan player may have hire one new agent, and had that agent to train twice, which would bring that agent to level 3, now, or maybe Brekk hired two new agents (that my Underworld turn reports can account for), which means that both could be Level 2 agents, now.

While it is pure speculation and guesswork on my part (subject to error, most assuredly), I'm guessing that the Lycans cast of agents/fanatics in game 5684 looks something like this,
now:

Level 13 agent
Level 11 agent
Level 10 agent
Level 9 agent
Level 9 fanatic
Level 8 agent
Level 3 agent
Level 2 agent
TOTAL NUMBER OF ACTIVE LYCANS AGENTS/FANATICS AS OF THE END OF TURN #7 = 8
(NOTE: Not counting any additional agents gained via transforming other kingdoms' agents/fanatics into werewolves!)


. . .or. . .


Level 13 agent
Level 11 agent
Level 10 agent
Level 9 agent
Level 9 fanatic
Level 8 agent
Level 3 agent
Level 1 agent
Level 1 agent 
TOTAL NUMBER OF ACTIVE LYCANS AGENTS/FANATICS AS OF THE END OF TURN #7 = 9
(NOTE: Not counting any additional agents gained via transforming other kingdoms' agents/fanatics into werewolves!) 


Hopefully, either Brekk (the Lycan player, himself) or others of you experienced Alamaze veterans can do me the courtesy of correcting my attempt at doing the agent math on the Lycan kingdom in this game, through Turn #7.

What am I missing or getting wrong? Am I way out in proverbial left field, somewhere?

I think typical agents are 3,2,2,2,1 or something like that.  
I play the spirit of the game so it does not become mind boggling.  Keeping track of all that is tedious, i prefer to think to myself, dang the lycans is right next door and is growing a butt load of agents.  Why?  Is he prepping for activities against my emissaries or wizards and how can I stop it? Or is he preparing for me to attack his? The mid game and end game can be crucial for high level agents, so maybe he is just planning ahead. 
Or is he just a nefarious sort of dude that likes the seedy underside of civilization?

We are getting to the mid-game soon, and I would rather spend my time discovering info concerning others’ pop centers and building armies and raising wizards than tracking exactly how many agents he has.  Discover his capital (or my capital, not trying to pick on the Lycans) and use a palantir (an artifact, or a scrying mirror) or raven familiar (a spell wizards cast) and you will probably find out most of the info you are looking into in one order.  
If you have not hired a high priestess you should, they are typically essential for learning pop center data.  
Having a temple allows the hiring and use of a noble maiden, who needs one turn of training to become a priestess (if she survives and passes her test). If you kidnap or capture militarily priestesses they will switch to your kingdom as well.
Especially early in the game when money and food are tight, most people train from their capital, as it is hard to build more than one bazaar and thieves guild this early.  Wiley vets may move their training facilities to a water pop center tho to protect them as it is more difficult for an army to attack a water pop center, unless you are a Dragon. Roar

Thank you for the upvote on the esteemed high council

[Maximus Dominus]

Having a temple allows the hiring and use of a noble maiden, who needs one turn of training to become a priestess (if she survives and passes her test). If you kidnap or capture militarily priestesses they will switch to your kingdom as well.

   

From the 4th Cycle Rulebook (Page #68), it appears that a High Priestess has to divine for the locations of Population Centers, Seapower, Regional Reactions, Artifact Names, Artifact Locations, and Military Groups separately, correct?

A High Priestness can only divine for one of those on any given turn, correct?

Thank you for the upvote on the esteemed high council

But of course! I am hopeful that our two kingdoms will avoid conflict with one another, and perhaps even coordinate and cooperate, at least to some degree, as this epoch proceeds into the future.

Perhaps even a Red Dragon can use additional sets of eyes.

[Maximus Dominus]

I play the spirit of the game so it does not become mind boggling.  Keeping track of all that is tedious

Yes, it certainly can be tedious, but I am trying to teach myself various things about both the game of Alamaze, in general, and about the Underworld kingdom, specifically.

The Lycans' 44 trainings of agents in this game, so far, sounds like an awful lot. However, I wanted to put things into perspective, that I might better grasp whether my own efforts at training agents is falling behind, relative to the Lycans, and if so, by how much? By breaking his training of agents down, I feel that I now have a better picture of how my own kingdom is fairing, where the whole agent ball of wax is concerned, Lord Darkseid. Of course, I may now be looking at things in a skewered manner, if I didn't do the math, right, or if the training of agents messages that the Underworld position receives in its turn reports also applies to the hiring of agents, as well, and not just to the training of agents to a higher level.

I don't really care about winning or playing to win, per se. Rather, I am guided by the dictum of "playing to have fun." Even still, right now, I still suffer from a marked lack of experience, and so it's difficult for me to have an idea how my kingdom is doing, relative to all of the other kingdoms in this game, all things considered.

I use the Lycans as my example in these recent calculations, simply because they have done the most training of agents, so far this game, out of all of the other kingdoms in this game, and not because I seek animosity with the Lycans, per se. So, I figure if I have an idea what the Lycans' overall agent capabilities and assets are, then all of the other kingdoms' have less agent capabilities and assets. That's the thinking behind me breaking the Lycan numbers on agent trainings.

[Maximus Dominus]

Just a friendly reminder. I couldn't remember, off the top of my head, whether this game (Game 5684) was a Full Diplomacy game or not.

It is.

   

   

[Maximus Dominus]

It easy to overlook. Standing Orders are on page 33/34 of rule book for clarification. And that last part is NOT noted on the pages. would have added an attachment showing Uncle Mikes pages and diagram but I couldn't figure how.

1. When posting or replying, scroll down to where it says Click or drop some files here to upload..., and click there.

   

2. Then, it will prompt you to pick files from your computer. You can click more than one, if you want. Choose which image files you want to attach to your posting or reply and hit enter.

3. Below where it then says Click or drop some files here to upload..., the forum will list each file that you imported from your computer by file name, and to the right of each, it will provide you a Remove Button and an Insert Into Post button.

   

4. Click the Insert Into Post button for each file that you want to display in the body of your posting or reply.

5. Finally, Preview your posting/reply, or go ahead and click on the Post Reply button, if your posting/reply looks like you want it to.

[Maximus Dominus]

Meanwhile, back to growing tensions in Mythgar. . .

Turn #8 has reared its ugly head, and somebody has decided to take it upon themself to provoke rebellion in the Underworld-controlled town of Nimbus Sign in the region of Mythgar.

   

Accordingly, let us now take a closer look at that region.