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[VballMichael]

It really wasn't even my fault so much. I mean turn 3 and that city still sitting neutral in the Fairy region; it seemed the Fairy Folk feared and did not want to claim the city. So, my arrogant, uncontrollable princes went over there and just took it. Really not my fault. And then they hired masons with no authority and built up a small castle. Shameless. Fairies are better off in the woods and streams anyway. Leave the walled places for the larger folks. Can Fairies even assemble enough bumblebees to storm a castle?

lol here comes the 60 brigade bumblebee squad! and of course that hex was the last i looked at in the whole region.

I learned something from that political action Vball.  I would not have thought to do that.

Yeah, it didn't work though. First, i thought you could only take it to neutral if i were maintaining, so i assumed you would do that and i would then take it back. And also I have always thought your 315 orders would benefit all emissaries in the square but that appears not to be the case. In any event, you earned your city. Now good luck trying to make your fairies live in a city.

i try to shine but the glory of your skill is hard to block!  have mercy on a poor soul!

I did have mercy. i took one pop center and then left the region. Sad to see the fairies leave this cold, cruel world.

[VballMichael]

Brek, nice job on the attack in Pellinor, but here is some food for thought.

Do you think, big picture, that 6 troops and some wizards should be able to take a legendary that easily?

  Demon Princes                        Minor City of Hunter Pass (Area UR)

                                        Commanders
                    Warlord Apocolypto              Constable Zonna
                    Lord Commander Blackheart       
                    General Despairitus             

                                        Wizards
                        Power-9 Eagle Borne            None
                        Power-8 Shadow Lord         
                        Power-7 Incubus             

                                        Brigades
                    1 Iron Golem Regular          10,389 Able Bodied Men
                    3 Trolls Veteran             
                    2 Trolls Regular             

                                      Combat Factors
                          Forged Armor              Legendary Castle
                      Forged Weaponry              Confident Morale
                      Renowned Leaders             
                      Very High Morale             

                                    Tactical Selection
                    Determined Attack              Burning Oil

[Brekk]

Brek, nice job on the attack in Pellinor, but here is some food for thought.

Do you think, big picture, that 6 troops and some wizards should be able to take a legendary that easily?

  Demon Princes                        Minor City of Hunter Pass (Area UR)

                                        Commanders
                    Warlord Apocolypto              Constable Zonna
                    Lord Commander Blackheart       
                    General Despairitus             

                                        Wizards
                        Power-9 Eagle Borne            None
                        Power-8 Shadow Lord         
                        Power-7 Incubus             

                                        Brigades
                    1 Iron Golem Regular          10,389 Able Bodied Men
                    3 Trolls Veteran             
                    2 Trolls Regular             

                                      Combat Factors
                          Forged Armor              Legendary Castle
                      Forged Weaponry              Confident Morale
                      Renowned Leaders             
                      Very High Morale             

                                    Tactical Selection
                    Determined Attack              Burning Oil

No, but I did it because, as I’m learning how things work in the code, it’s the Trolls that are the issue — combined with the defensiveness of the IG, weapons, spells, etc.
That said, more does not equal better, which is why I tried it. Honestly, I was fully prepared to lose that group.
Trolls going forward will be capped at 3 instead of 5, which would have made that impossible 

[VballMichael]

Brek, nice job on the attack in Pellinor, but here is some food for thought.

Do you think, big picture, that 6 troops and some wizards should be able to take a legendary that easily?

  Demon Princes                        Minor City of Hunter Pass (Area UR)

                                        Commanders
                    Warlord Apocolypto              Constable Zonna
                    Lord Commander Blackheart       
                    General Despairitus             

                                        Wizards
                        Power-9 Eagle Borne            None
                        Power-8 Shadow Lord         
                        Power-7 Incubus             

                                        Brigades
                    1 Iron Golem Regular          10,389 Able Bodied Men
                    3 Trolls Veteran             
                    2 Trolls Regular             

                                      Combat Factors
                          Forged Armor              Legendary Castle
                      Forged Weaponry              Confident Morale
                      Renowned Leaders             
                      Very High Morale             

                                    Tactical Selection
                    Determined Attack              Burning Oil

No, but I did it because, as I’m learning how things work in the code, it’s the Trolls that are the issue — combined with the defensiveness of the IG, weapons, spells, etc.
That said, more does not equal better, which is why I tried it. Honestly, I was fully prepared to lose that group.
Trolls going forward will be capped at 3 instead of 5, which would have made that impossible 

It was impressive. i didn't even Dome that one because you had 6 troops.

[Clueless]

Let's be more informative to help the rest of us.

What was the combat strength vs pc of this group? Trolls are something like 3000 and Iron Golem are like 4000. Veteran experience is a +15% bonus (I think). So, the group has a base combat value of around 3x3450 + 2x3000 + 1x4000 = 20,350.

The battle report says very high morale, what is that? Something like +15%? So, the 20,350 becomes 23,400.

The combat bonus from leaders is (25 warlord, 15 lord commander, 10 general) so +50% which makes the base 23,400 into 35,100.

The combat bonus that the group gets from improved weaponry/armor is +25% to offense/defense, so that makes the offensive base from 35,100 into 43,875.

Add the Trolls +50% bonus that increases the 43,875 into becoming 65,812. That's not even close to defeating a 200,000+ pc defense.

So, it seems that the wizard magic played the primary role in defeating a legendary castle. What spells did each of the wizards cast at levels 9, 8, and 7?

That's the kind of stuff us newbies don't know. Because a 65,812 strong group vs a 200,000+ pc defense indicates some powerful magic was at play here. Any help in informing us newer players would make us better players in competing with the more experienced players.

[VballMichael]

Let's be more informative to help the rest of us.

What was the combat strength vs pc of this group? Trolls are something like 3000 and Iron Golem are like 4000. Veteran experience is a +15% bonus (I think). So, the group has a base combat value of around 3x3450 + 2x3000 + 1x4000 = 20,350.

The battle report says very high morale, what is that? Something like +15%? So, the 20,350 becomes 23,400.

The combat bonus from leaders is (25 warlord, 15 lord commander, 10 general) so +50% which makes the base 23,400 into 35,100.

The combat bonus that the group gets from improved weaponry/armor is +25% to offense/defense, so that makes the offensive base from 35,100 into 43,875.

Add the Trolls +50% bonus that increases the 43,875 into becoming 65,812. That's not even close to defeating a 200,000+ pc defense.

So, it seems that the wizard magic played the primary role in defeating a legendary castle. What spells did each of the wizards cast at levels 9, 8, and 7?

That's the kind of stuff us newbies don't know. Because a 65,812 strong group vs a 200,000+ pc defense indicates some powerful magic was at play here. Any help in informing us newer players would make us better players in competing with the more experienced players.

This may be the smallest group i have seen take a legendary. First, my castle was only about 178,000. Second, the best way to hit one is to lower its defenses, so spells like Fear and Wind Storm have the best effect. I will defer to Brekk on details of his group power and spells. Not complaining, good for him for taking the shot. Even the veterans have things to learn.

[Brekk]

Here's what I think I know:

The starting strength was 174,000. Yes, that's a relatively weak Legendary, but VB didn't have much time to build it up. I suspect his strategy was to make the city nearly impossible to take through diplomatic attacks rather than military conquest, especially after he began warring with the FF.

I still have an old spreadsheet that I used to reference, but I don't think it's very accurate anymore. Simply comparing attack versus defense values doesn't work particularly well in Alamaze. This is an area that Olorin and I have spent a lot of time analyzing over the last five or six months.

For the most part, troops have historically been fairly generic unless they possessed special abilities, such as Trolls. The combat damage phases have felt somewhat inconsistent for a long time, and because I didn't write the code, I've never been able to fully reverse-engineer exactly how everything works.

One thing I have noticed is that the troop rankings (NA, Average, Excellent, Superior, Awesome) may have originally been intended for more uniform troop types. However, as additional kingdoms were added over the years, particularly when Uncle Mike had less time available, not all of those rankings were updated consistently. Making changes requires editing multiple areas of the code, which is both tedious and easy to overlook.

A good example is Beholders. On paper, they're nearly top-tier in every category, yet Elves have relatively weak archery, only slightly above average. Intuitively, I would expect the Elven long-range and short-range combat phases to be at least as effective as a Sacred Order cavalry charge.

Going forward, I know kingdom design is evolving, and I hope future updates continue to add more flavor and distinction between kingdom troop types.

Back to the Fight

6 troops plus a Level 9/8/7 Demon Prince versus a Population Center with 174,000 starting defense

Population Center

Starting Defense: 174,000

Modifiers

Mammoths/Hill Giants: 0%
Undead: 0%
Siege Engineering: 0%
Ruthless: -17,400 (10%)
Capital Bonus: 0%
Fear: -43,500 (25%)
Crack the Sky: -43,500 (25%)

Remaining Defense: 69,600

Attacking Force

Troops: Approximately 40,000 starting strength

I then brought in five Trolls, which effectively reduced the remaining defense by another 50%, leaving roughly 35,000.

The Iron Golem's breath weapon causes a 25% morale loss for defenders. I'm still not entirely certain how the mechanic works under the hood, but it appeared to function somewhat like a miniature Windstorm against a Population Center. Military artifacts provided some additional bonuses, although they were relatively minor.

This is where troop composition became critical.

Had I used average troops, the castle damage would likely have destroyed my force during the first couple of combat phases, even after casting Fear. Instead, I relied on the fact that the Iron Golem has the second-highest defense rating in the game, surpassed only by the Red Dragon, while Trolls are also among the strongest defensive troops available.

The real gamble was whether I could survive the arrow fire, which, as most players know, accounts for the majority of damage inflicted by castles. Fortunately, both Trolls and Iron Golems deliver steady damage throughout all combat phases. Iron Golems are particularly effective against Population Centers, and it's worth noting that Legionaries, Castles, and Greater Castles appear to benefit from a hidden defensive factor that makes them more difficult to capture than their raw numbers would suggest.

Another major factor was magic damage. In addition to Fear and Crack the Sky, I had Incendiary Cloud, which was doing approximately 4,500 × 9, or about 40,500 damage, during the magic phases. The presence damage from all three mages also added up significantly over the course of the battle.

Without that magical damage output, I don't think I would have been able to generate enough total damage to win the fight. The troop composition kept me alive long enough to stay in the battle, but the combined effect of Crack the Sky, Fear, Incendiary Cloud, and the presence damage from the three mages is what ultimately pushed the damage totals high enough to bring down the Population Center.

In the end, the deciding factor was the magic phase. Looking back at the numbers, it was actually a much closer fight than many people probably realize. This wasn't a case of overwhelming military strength; it was a carefully calculated attack that depended on surviving the early combat phases and maximizing every source of damage available.


Post Fight troops :

Attacking Force Summary

| Category | Details |
| -------------------------- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| **Army Name** | Hell's Children |
| **Location** | Hunter Pass (PC Defense: 169,036) |
| **Army Morale** | 142% |
| **Army Attrition** | 13.8% |
| **Terrain Modifier** | 0% |
| **Overall Defense** | Awesome |
| **Estimated Army Value** | 48,362 |
| **Estimated Value vs. PC** | 42,416 |
| **Equipment** | Improved Armor, Improved Weaponry |
| **Artifacts** | Great Axe of Hurblind, Guardian Talisman, Key of the Gem, Morgal Blade, 2 Renowned Standards, Scrying Mirror, Valyrian Steel |

Command Staff

| Role | Leader |
| ------- | ------------------------------ |
| Warlord | Apocolypto |
| Warlord | Blackheart |
| General | Despairitus |
| Mage | Power-9 Eagle Borne Simulacrum |
| Mage | Power-8 Shadow Lord |
| Mage | Power-7 Incubus |

### Combat Power by Phase

| Phase | Damage |
| ------------------- | -----: |
| Long Range Missile | 2,139 |
| Short Range Missile | 4,377 |
| Charge | 10,661 |
| Melee | 31,183 |
| Storm | 17,949 |

Troop Composition

| Unit | Experience | Number | Morale | Attrition | Defense |
| ---------- | ---------- | -----: | -----: | --------: | -------- |
| Iron Golem | Veteran | 1 | 153% | 14.8% | Ultimate |
| Trolls | Elite | 2 | 137% | 12.4% | Awesome |
| Trolls | Veteran | 2 | 142% | 13.9% | Superior |
| Trolls | Regular | 1 | 142% | 15.5% | Renowned |

[davekuyk]

The rulebook states: Group gets +10% attack vs. PC for each Troll brigade

There is no mention anywhere that Trolls reduce the PC's defense.

If this indeed is how Trolls work, they are far and away the best troops vs a PC. No other troops scale with the defense of the PC.

[Brekk]

The rulebook states: Group gets +10% attack vs. PC for each Troll brigade

There is no mention anywhere that Trolls reduce the PC's defense.

If this indeed is how Trolls work, they are far and away the best troops vs a PC. No other troops scale with the defense of the PC.

Davekuyk,

You are correct, and even with that adjustment, they are still among the best troops against Population Centers when used with the right composition. That force was still only battling approximately 70,000 defense after all the reductions were applied, and that's not even accounting for the artifacts and other modifiers that I didn't include in my calculations.

At the end of the day, it was a gamble. I wasn't sure it would work, but I wanted to test the limits of what was possible. Based on the results, I think there are really only two paths forward: either Trolls need to be limited to a maximum of three units in an army, or the base defense of Population Centers needs to be increased.

[Lord Garth]

Brek,

Did you cast Fear? With Ruthless and Crack the Sky already in effect you were already at the 35% cap. The Fear spell should have had no effect whatsoever.

Iron Golems, as best as I understand it, give 'Fear' that doesn't apply to the cap so you were at a total of 60% Fear.

Also, the Artifacts were not trivial. You had 50 pts of bonus there, plus 42 pts of morale, 50 more from Trolls, 25 pts of Forged and 60 from leaders. That's 227 pts of bonus. Plus your Veteran/Elite Bonuses and Presence.

What percent losses did you take?

Great work.

And yeah, Trolls should be capped at 3

Lord Garth
Master of Math